LEE COLLET DIE-SOME MEASUREMENTS

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  • Last Post 27 August 2014
joeb33050 posted this 01 May 2014

One set of 30 casesNECK DIAMETER AFTER FIRING .3436"AFTER LEE COLLET DIE .3377" Another set of 29 casesNECK DIAMETER AFTER FIRING .3443"AFTER LEE LOADER SIZING  .3350"AFTER M DIEING  .3362" After neck sizing and m dieing, the case necks are .0015” SMALLER than after collet dieing. This means my bullets aren't tight in my cases after collet dieing. Data in the attachment. Over to Ken

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billwnr posted this 01 May 2014

Two things for you Joe; How does a .308 Striker shoot in Military BR class?

Next, I used the Lee collet die for a while and after I found out it wasn't giving consistent results and also the results that I wanted I switched to the slightly more expensive Redding neck bushing die. If the neck thicknesses were consistent, and mine were as they were Lapua brass, then the after sized neck sizes were consistent.

You'll probably spend around $100 for the die and bushing(s). One thing it does save is months of futzing around with a less desirable design, and record keeping, and replaces it with the precise results one desires. Neck bushings come in .001 increments.

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R. Dupraz posted this 01 May 2014

billwnr: My experience mirrors yours. And I too have switched to the Redding bushings dies, for both my military rifles, Spingfield “06” and a K-98 Mauser 7.62x51. So far, I have seen noticeable improvements. But a season of matches will tell the story.   And, I might add, I am using worked over military issue LC “69” brass for both.

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joeb33050 posted this 02 May 2014

The Lee Collet die involves a collet, a mandrel and a collet squeezer.When the die is set per instructions and the ctg neck is squoze such that the i.d. is pressed onto the mandrel, that's it. You got the “critical squeeze force” and the mandrel diameter. Now, the die can be adjusted to give LARGER i. d. than with the csf by backing off the die, reducing the amount of squeeze for ANY force, but the minimum i.d. is at proper setting and csf.It ain't magic, nothing over csf does anything to the brass, and that's it. It's a collet!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 May 2014

if both ... the collet sqeezer-against-mandrel and ... the outside bushing squeezer ... gadgets .. worked as conceived ...

if the case necks vary in thickness ...

the collet would give consistent id diameters ...and varying outside dia.

the bushing would give consistent od and varying id.

sophie's choice ?

ken

the bushing would give consistent od and varying in

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joeb33050 posted this 02 May 2014

onondaga wrote: Joe, Adjusting the die to give a larger neck inside diameter is not in Lee directions or design.Well, it ain't in the directions, but is in the design. If that is what you wish to do, Lee recommends that you order a custom mandrel from them at the diameter you desire.That's not what I want to do, it's all the “adjustment” that is possible. Operating the die set to your plan defeats the consistency of sized neck inside diameter that the dies are made to give. You have presented this as a fault of Lee Collet Neck Die. It's not my plan, and I have not presented this as a fault.

Setting the die so it can't completely squeeze the brass against the mandrel to get a larger neck inside diameter does so  but without dependable consistency. This also subtracts from concentricity by not operating the die to it's potential.Show us the data. Coupling these variant from instruction methods along with not setting the die up according instructions for presses that cam over and locking the “O” ringed die licking ring with metel to metal contact has consequences too.

Static hysteresis of the entire die system results is accomplished doing so many things without regard to design instructions and this in turn will end up with the numbers you present as statistical proof that Lee is faulty and unsuccessful in their design. Static hysterisis? What is that buzzing noise? I don't believe that the Lee collet die is faulty, or that the design is unsuccessful. Zillions are made and sold and used. They just don't work for me.I am very certain you believe you are correct. I am also certain I could check, correct parts and reset your setup and correct what you present as Lee's error simply by following Lee directions and recommendations for achieving larger neck inside diameter with Lee Collet Neck sizing dies. A larger diameter mandrel will give consistent increase in neck inside diameter as verified with pin gauges with the die setup to directions and the numbers will not be skewed like your numbers are skewed giving a false negative statistic that you present by giving outside diameters and using non recommended die setup. I is magical perfection when used correctly. You won't achieve the magic by changing applied force from the recommended,  incorrect die adjustment and measuring outside diameter of the necks. You get as you have recorded in your post: loose bullets and variance in neck outside diameter. I don't get those results and never have from Lee Collet Neck sizing dies.

Gary

Gary I use and have used the setup directions that came with the die. I measure neck o.d. because it is easy, consistent with this set of brass, and is a reliable indicator of neck i.d.I'm sure that Lee is delighted with your defense of their collet dies, but your defense faces no attack. When used as directed, with several; sets of brass, in 223 and 308, Lee collet Dies do not hold my bullets securely enough for my needs-and this is my second try. I've made a set of measurements using the lot of brass labeled “Striker 308", to show what happens during various sizing processes. I was surprised, and amazed. You may not be. 

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John Alexander posted this 02 May 2014

Ken wrote: if both ... the collet sqeezer-against-mandrel and ... the outside bushing squeezer ... gadgets .. worked as conceived ...

if the case necks vary in thickness ...

the collet would give consistent id diameters ...and varying outside dia.

the bushing would give consistent od and varying id.

sophie's choice ?

Ken is dead right.  What this says is that if you are using a bushing die with unturned brass from the usual suspects (Remchester or Federal etc.) you should get a collet die and learn how to use it. BUT ONLY IF you believe that a little variation in neck tension will affect accuracy -- a very dubious assumption in my opinion.

If you are getting nice consistent OD diameters with your bushing die it means the the ID.s are certainly varying - by the amount of variation in the thickness of the necks and a collet die will correct this without neck turning -- unless case hardness varies. If you have turned necks or Laupa brass either die will produce uniform IDs and ODs if the cases are consistent in the degree they have been work hardened.  If the case necks vary from near annealed to quite work hardened neither die will give uniform IDs -- or ODs for that matter. So I think Sophie has a clear choice the Lee die will more likely keep you out of trouble -- and save money that would be spent on bushings as well. John

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R. Dupraz posted this 02 May 2014

"If you are getting nice consistent OD diameters with your bushing die it means the the ID.s are certainly varying - by the amount of variation in the thickness of the necks and a collet die will correct this without neck turning -- unless case hardness varies.'   Not if you know how to prepare the brass.

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John Alexander posted this 02 May 2014

RD, I thought I covered that pretty clearly in my post. John

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joeb33050 posted this 03 May 2014

I've added to and renamed the workbook. The data is there as well as a summ ary that might make things clearer. I'm surprised at how little dimensions change after various processes. For you collet guys and bushing guys, how about measuring some dimensions to add to this data? Measuring case neck o.d. with a dial/vernier caliperafter firingafter sizingafter loading with a bullet of .xxxx diameter Were case necks turned? I put the case neck in the caliper, close the jaws and write down the measurement. No turning the case, no fiddling, one measurement.The more cases the better, up to 30. I try for 30 but sometimes end up short. In SAMPLES, each numbered case is the same number during each step. Ex. in my 1-30 sample, #1 case is the same case after each operationIf we had more data ...

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John Alexander posted this 03 May 2014

Joe, I woud be glad to participate but you will have to be a little less concise.  What is the objective?

I don't understand what another set of numbers like the ones on your workbook would accomplish with either the Lee collet or a bushing type die since both can size to a variety of neck sizes. 

If you are asking for the numbers on 30 cases to find the variation from case to case I would suggest using a good micrometer and reading to tenths or at least to the nearest two tenths because the variation would be small. Maybe if I could get to the summary I wouldn't be asking these stupid questions. More instructions please. John

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billwnr posted this 03 May 2014

Is this a problem you're having or just trying to stir things up and get info for the book as neck bushing dies are the way to go. I know if one who wants to learn new things hangs around the jacketed bullet BR crowd one will not see a single Lee collet die.   One would see arbor presses, appropriate dies and neck bushings in use.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 May 2014

billwnr wrote: Is this a problem you're having or just trying to stir things up and get info for the book as neck bushing dies are the way to go. I know if one who wants to learn new things hangs around the jacketed bullet BR crowd one will not see a single Lee collet die.   One would see arbor presses, appropriate dies and neck bushings in use. I'd like to know about cartridge and rifle headspace measurements and neck measurements. Neck measurementsEach set of measurements requires clear identification of brass, rifle, tools etc.For a given set and sample of cases, measuring the neck diameter with a dial/vernier/electronic caliper, one measurement, between mouth and shoulder:1. fired; fl sized; m died, loaded with bullet of ? dia 2. fired; neck sized with fl sizing dies, m died; loaded with bullet of ? dia 3. fired; sized with lee collet die, loaded with bullet of ? dia 4. fired; sized with ?redding neck bushing(dia?) dies; loaded with bullet of ? dia  This should give us some notion of the variation in each method, is a starting point. I'm confident that other questions will arise. This is an easy set of measurements. Keeping the cases in order IS required.If anyone will start, we can develop the instructions and a form.The revised workbook is attached. 

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joeb33050 posted this 04 May 2014

CARTRIDGE CASE DIMENSIONS   HEADSPACE   SAAMI CHAMBER MAX               1.640 SAAMI CHAMBER MIN                1.630 FL SIZED CASE AVG                 1.6225 FL SIZED CASE MIN                 1.619     CASE NECK DIAMETER   FIRST SAMPLE FIRED                                                 .3436 LEE COLLET DIE SIZED                  .3377                         SECOND SAMPLE FIRED                                                 .3443 LEE LOADER SIZED             .3350 M DIED                                               .3362   THIRD SAMPLE LOADED .3095 BULLET                      .3391  

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John Alexander posted this 05 May 2014

Joe, I don't own a 308 right now and am mostly loading for a 223.  I will also be tied up with other things for awhile.  But if you are interested in the results of running 30 223 cases sized with a collet die (to two different diameters if interested) in a couple of weeks I could provide them.

I could also do a run with a Redding bushing die if somebody else doesn't volunteer for that.

Maybe consistency in neck sizing makes a difference and maybe it doesn't but either way it would be a good thing to learn more about how consistently we are sizing. John

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curator posted this 26 August 2014

After it doesn't work most of us guys will read the directions. The Lee collet die gives very consistent ID and will with subsequent use actually even out neck thickness for more consistent run out. However, you do need to use it properly. Additionally, if the mandrill is a bit undersize it is very easy to chuck it in an electric drill and reduce its diameter a few thousandths. My personal experience has tilted towards the Lee collet die over the Redding neck-bushing die system. Some of this may be due to the fact that I use several different brass suppliers, Lapua, Norma, Winchester, Federal, and Remington. ALL work fine with the Lee Colet die but EACH need separate Redding neck size bushing due to different neck thickness.

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gpidaho posted this 27 August 2014

I use both Redding bushing dies and Lee collet dies in my opinion if your not neck turning your brass the Lee die is the better choice. That being said I have often wished that Lee would offer a set of mandrels that were -1, +1  through + 4. So one could control I.D.  I really have good luck using the Redding bushing dies but would not use them myself without neck turning, just to much variance in neck thickness even in the same lot of brass.  GP

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John Alexander posted this 27 August 2014

The +1 through +4 would work OK not so sure that the collet leaves would close down to -4 but don't know. However, the + size mandrels aren't needed if neck thicknesses and hardness are uniform.

My match cases have uniform neck thicknesses and I simply back the die off for larger neck diameters which is usually the case for cast bullets.  The inside of the neck doesn't touch the mandrel Yes I know that's not according to Lee's directions but it works perfectly.  And by perfectly I mean less than +- .0005” variation in OD which means that with my cases the ID is also good.  The cases have all been loaded approximately the same number of times since new (35 - 38) and have never been annealed so probably have about the same hardness/springback.

With non-uniform neck thicknesses or with cases of varying hardness mashing down on a mandrel is probably needed if you worry about neck tension.  Even with a mandrel the ID will vary a bit if the case hardness varies with either the collet die or the Redding die.

I am pretty sure that variation in ID/neck tension doesn't affect accuracy if the average tension is reasonable for the diameter and hardness level of the bullet so the bullet isn't deformed on seating. But for those that worry about neck tension -- don't let anybody tell you that the Lee Collet die can't deliver very uniform IDs if done right. 

John

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