Short Chambered Barrel (308 Winchester)

  • 13K Views
  • Last Post 14 September 2014
OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

I just ordered one of Brownells Short Chambered Shilen chrome molly barrels on sale with free shipping. It has the Remington Varmint contour, 1/10 twist, 308 Winchester caliber. Which reamer should I order to achieve a smaller .3095 diameter lead while still retaining the standard 308 Winchester chamber and neck size. Would the 308 Obermyer version work. This is my first post. Thanks, Keith  

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

Edit: Trying to achieve a smaller .3085 lead

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

For some reason I cannot edit original post. Here is picture of Obermeyer reamer http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/308OBERMEYERMATCHGR_zpsfbf7f552.jpg.html>

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 30 June 2014

FWIW, my experience is that everything is cut except the shoulder. Lead is probably already SAMMI spec. Sorry for the bad news, Ric

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 June 2014

ppg will grind a reamer to your specs at no additional charge. i prefer separate throater, both bushed, so you can throat to your preferred bullet. more money however.

your drawing shows throat taper of 5 degrees included ... in my fondest dreams i would use a throat of 1/2 to 3/4 degree included for cast bullets. i am now using a throater with 3 degrees included and it does not give the engraving i want. just my opinion, proceed carefully ( g )

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

I called Shilen and they told me that lead was not cut on these. I will use my bore scope to inspect. Brownells has a good return policy BTW

What is SAMMI spec .3100? This smaller than my factory Remington's 308 Nato spec of .3120” and .150 length lead.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 30 June 2014

SAMMI spec is 0.310” (plus 0.002") throat with a 1 degree 45 minute angle to bore. Again plus 0.002". http://www.saami.org/pubresources/ccdrawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

Ric

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

I will let you guys know what the lead or throat measures when I receive barrel. Thanks for your help.

BTW looking at some of the match results, I noticed that the custom tighter necked 30BR guns shoot only a tad better than a factory Savage. My factory Remington 700 VS with it's huge .3120 throat will group 1” with carefully loaded concentric ammo. I size the large .314 lino bullet down to .3115. Bullet is the LEE (Harris Design) CTL312-160-2R

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 30 June 2014

Here's a picture of bullet and sample target. Velocity is about 1950fps and seems even more accurate the faster bullet is pushed. I will try more velocity next time at range.

http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF7887_zps076b120b.jpg.html>

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 08 July 2014

Today I received the new 26” Shilen short chambered barrel.  The short throat or lead is cut to .3080” diameter. Later I will post picture of chamber cast. Crown is cut and finished to 11 degree angle. Barrel rifling is not lapped, looks lots better than my factory Remington barrel.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 08 July 2014

Length of lead measures slightly under .100” and diameter of lead is close to groove diameter (about.3080- .3083"). So the  small diameter lead can be cut larger if wanted. The case neck diameter appears to measure SAMMI 308 Winchester (about .345"). This short cut chamber is very similar to the 308 Obermyer.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 July 2014

to dabble just a moment in perversion ... i always thought it would be interesting to take a short-chambered barrel and create a cartridge case to fit it ... in this example you would wind up with roughly a rem. 30 BR brass ...with a neidner type throat ( ie:: none ... needs a bore rider long nose bullet ) ..

of course you could still use a throater for the usual molds ..

perversion OFF

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 09 July 2014

Guys, Can I adjust headspace using thicker recoil lug? Factory recoil lug thickness is .186". Bolt will JUST close on GO gauge using a .200 thick recoil lug. All I will have to do is use a Uni Throater to cut throat without cutting shoulder back. Will this work?

I am looking for good universal throat. Any ideas on what throat deminsions should be for both cast and jacketed? .

Also, what is the best way to finish barrel to a Black matte finsh?

Safe and Sound

?v=47dtFZ8CFo8&list=RD47dtFZ8CFo8#t=0>
?v=47dtFZ8CFo8&list=RD47dtFZ8CFo8#t=0     ...  

Attached Files

TomG posted this 09 July 2014

OU,

While you haven't said what receiver you are installing this barrel on, I'm assuming it's a Remington 700. 

Yes, you can adjust headspace clearance using the thickness of the recoil plate but you cannot ignore the bolt nose to end of the barrel clearance. This is a safety thing and you will be increasing it even further when you use a thicker recoil plate.

While you may want to save money, if it were mine, I'd do it right and set up the proper clearance on the bolt nose, both radially and longitudinally and then chamber the barrel deeper with a chamber reamer as short chambered barrels are designed to be done. In other words do it right.

You must realize that the bolt nose clearance on a Rem. 700 regulates the amount of case head that is sticking out of the back of the chamber unsupported. Right now with a short chambered barrel it's probably excessive and dangerous. It will be worse if you put a thicker recoil plate in there. What you are suggesting is unsafe. If you don't control these dimensions, you can blow a case head out and get hurt not to mention wreck your gun.

I usually set the clearance dimension of the end of the bolt to the end of the barrel to .010” for maximum support and safety. You can make it smaller but there is always the chance that some debris or a bristle from a cleaning brush can get in there and stop the bolt from closing. I would not let the bolt nose clearance go over .020 ever. A simple way of measuring bolt nose clearance is to take some grease and smear a dab onto the end of the bolt nose. Stick a #9 lead shot to the end of the bolt nose. Install the barrel onto the receiver and close the bolt. You will squash the pellet down to the clearance and can then mike it.  Then adjust from there in the lathe. Make sure you really lube the bolt lugs and bolt recesses in the receiver so that you don't gall them up closing on the lead. You can mess them up if you don't as they aren't designed to smash lead.

I usually set up the bolt nose radial clearance to .010 per side to keep the gap as close as practical and increase safety. This extension that is built onto the end of Remington barrels ( “the three rings of steel", to use their jargon ) is to contain the blast if a case head ruptures.  Again, consider safety and do it right in the first place.

Notice I'm saying how I do it. Not how you should do it. You can choose any dimension you like but think safety first before saving a few bucks and taking the chance of having a cobbled up job. While you can see that installing a barrel is not rocket science, there are some things about it that require some careful thought before doing. 

If you want a matte barrel finish, you can sand blast the barrel and then apply the finish. Here's an area where you can save some money. Blast it or sand it down and then spray it with a flat black paint. If you cure it in your wife's oven it will bake on pretty hard and last a reasonable length of time.

Tom G

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 09 July 2014

Bolt nose clearance appears to be  too much (.030) using the .014” thicker .200 recoil lug. The factory .186 recoil lug should bring bolt nose clearance in spec of .010-.020. I will cut chamber deeper to bring head space in spec. Here is resized IMI case setting in short cut chamber.    

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 July 2014

dang ! so close ... i set up match rifles so the bolt feels the brass about half way on closing. however, the 0.030 nose clearance is slightly too much ... not for mild cast bullet shooting, but we have to error on the safe side ... such as someone sticking an overload in there when you are not looking ... then you want that famous m700 ” three rings of steel ” between the gas and the shooter.

just for trivia, i set bolt NOSE clearane-to-barrel at 0.004 MINIMUM for a match rig.

thanks for your posts; i have never cut a short chambered barrel, i didn't realize they were that close.

for throat lead angle, i wouldn't compromise for j bullets, they can take care of themselves ( dangit ! ) .. i would go with 1/2 to 3/4 degree INCLUDED ) .. heh, be gentle to our soft-hearted little friends ...

oh, if you hand throat it yourself, go slightly ( 0.010 ) short; when you lap the throat it will remove some little burrs that can mislead ( mis- leade ? heh ) you.

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 09 July 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: for throat lead angle, i wouldn't compromise for j bullets, they can take care of themselves ( dangit ! ) .. i would go with 1/2 to 3/4 degree INCLUDED ) .. heh, be gentle to our soft-hearted little friends ...

oh, if you hand throat it yourself, go slightly ( 0.010 ) short; when you lap the throat it will remove some little burrs that can mislead ( mis- leade ? heh ) you.

ken Would a freebore length of .090” and a tighter leade diameter .3085” be best for accuracy? Or will the SAMMI 308 Winchester with .310 diameter leade work just as good

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 10 July 2014

I have read that a bullet with a long bore ride section such as the RCBS SIL 165 or 311299 requires a more steep throat angle past lead to work best. What style of bullet requires a 1/2 or 3/4 degree included angle?

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 July 2014

heh, the best throating for cast bullets seems to be still controversial. probably because no one design has proven to be the ONLY good one.

it seems that whatever the details, the more support for the greatest length of bullet possible gives the best result. so the bullet and throat design should work together. the bullet should look a lot like the throat.

the easiest to imagine in your mind is the tapered bullet in a matching tapered throat. if the length of the contact patch of the bullet is one inch, it takes an angle of about 1/2 degree included to give full support .

imho, the popular long bore riding nose type bullets are so popular because they are easy to get 2-3 moa in a decent factory chamber. ~2 moa is completely good enough for most field shooting. to obtain groups half of that and better requires much more planning and specialization. some say luck. ( g ) .

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 10 July 2014

Thanks Ken. I have a couple of  the Lee tapered design bullets that shoot pretty good in my factory 308 Remington (see 9th post above). How would I measure tapered angle section of these bullets to see what angle they already have? They appear to have 1 degree total or 1/2 degree per side.

. These are fat bullets measuring .314 at bands as cast using linotype alloy. Area in front of band measures .310 then tapers down to .300. Total length  on surface from .310 to .300 is  .340 long. Can angle be figured with this measurement? 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 10 July 2014

I emailed Lee asking what the taper was. Here is their reply: . C312-155-2R- 1.62° INCLUDED CTL312-160-2R- 1.13° INCLUDED

Lee Precision, Inc. 4275 Highway U Hartford, WI 53027 phone: 262-673-3075

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 July 2014

here is a handy ” arctan ” calculator ... kinda fun to see how much support a bullet gets.

http://calculator.tutorvista.com/arctan-calculator.html


arctan just means ” the arc ( angle ) whose tangent is ( xxxx ) .

the tangent for our rifles is just the ratio of the depth of your rifling divided by the length of the bullet you want engraved. that gives one side; double that for the included angle.

example: for our 308 barrels, depth of rifling is about 0.004 inches. to get 1/2 inch of the bullet engraved would be 0.004/0.5. a tangent of 0.008; put that into the calculator above and get an angle of about 1/2 degree per side, or about 1 degree included.

kinda fun to see how little support our square bullets get in a round throat ( g ) .

gee no wonder microgrooves like fat bullets !!


SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL BULLET !

( g )

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 11 July 2014

Ken, You have an unusual, but cool way with words. Thanks for your help and I do understand the math btw.


SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL BULLET !

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 July 2014

i don't mean to be condescending with the math speak .. i have to crutch up anything to do with figgers ... i have had numbers tatooed on my fingers just to count to ten ... well, eleven if i call in my reserves on another part of my body ..

( g )

ken

Attached Files

TomG posted this 11 July 2014

OU,

When I was building and shooting bench rest cast bullet rifles we approached the fitting of tapered bullets to the guns's throat a different way. We used a bump press to taper any cast bullet to fit the tapered throat of the gun. There was an added benefit as by bumping the bullet in a die, the gas check and the base could be made dead square with the centerline of the bullet. The gas check was also very flat on the bottom and the amount of bump force was adjusted to still maintain a small radius at the base edge of the gas check.

Most used one degree included angle tapers on the lands with a short freebore that was around a thousanth of an inch over bore dia.. Some shot bullets up to 4 or 5 thousanths over bore but I didn't subscribe to that practice. I stayed about a thou. over on the straight cylindrical part of the base of the bullet. My idea was not to size the bullet down in the throat of the gun under the tremendous, violent conditions of combustion but to do it under much more controlled conditions in a sizer/lubricator where everything could be controlled and held straight.

I once had some of my bumped bullets checked on an optical comparator (shadow graph) and they were dead square bases to the centerline of the bullet.

I had my 30BR reamers made with the freebore dia. at .0003 to a half thou. over groove. That way they could be used for jacketed bullet guns too. Then I had a throater reamer made to the dia. and taper I used and throated the barrel to that taper after chambering it. Throating was done in a separate operation but in the same machine setup. I would throat the barrel till the bullet seated about 25 thousanths into the case mouth would just push back a little with the bolt was in battery. That way the bullet was pushed snugly up into the taper and didn't jump to the lands. As soon as it moved, the tapered lands started engraving the whole lengty of the nose instantaneously. Marks on the nose of recovered bullets showed no slippage of the bullet in the lands. And very little distortion to the bullet skin.

I also used that same throater reamer to make the bump die. As you can see, it then allows you to make a bullet that is the exact dimensions of the throat for perfect support when it enters the barrel.

Don Eagan used to use the taper of a standard taper reamer for his moulds. It was a little different than a half degree per side. They all worked well but as Ken mentions a half deg. per side gives you a max length of taper and still leave some straight side on the bullet for the match to the freebore. I made the bullets a slight interferance fit to the freebore to get the best seal and support possible of the bullet to throat.

If you're looking to maximize accuracy, you want to concentrate on bullet to throat fit. Most things that happen that at detrimental to cast bullet accuracy happen in the throat of the gun. By making a bump die, almost any bullet could be swaged to match the throat of the gun. This opened the door to a whole lot of bullets to try.

If you search the archives of this list you will find this discussed in detail several times over.

Tom Gray

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 11 July 2014

Thank you Tom. I understand this lots better now. Is it possible to bump up linotype bullets. I think I read here that you used linotype and monotype alloy when target shooting.

Has anyone ever tried machining hard lead bullets on a CNC lathe. I am sure it has been done, but is it legal in competition.

Attached Files

TomG posted this 12 July 2014

Yes, it's not hard to bump up a bullet in an RCBS Rock Chucker press setup. I've heard that this press can generate ~60,000 psi. when it rolls over center at the top of the stroke. It takes very llittle effort to do it. When trying to bump up, I used to get stretching of the bump dies if they were made of 7/8” stock so, I took the bushing out of the top of the press and used stock that was much larger in diameter.  Even Drill Rod would stretch and that's pretty tough stuff. Having a thicker wall on the dies solved the stretching problem.

Bumping lead bullets  up is less desirable than sizing them down. It's better not to choose a throat that is over .309” and then everybody's 30 cal. bullets can be made to fit by sizing down. In bumping them up, die stretching and bump force make it very hard to maintain a consistent diameter unless you use a soft alloy and shoot them slow. My bump press design was made in such a way as to control where the taper started on the bullet as well as the bump force when the press rolled over center.

Yes, I used alloys of monotype and Foundry type to shoot in the 2500 to 2700 fps. range. This was to minimize wind drift. These alloys always cast very easily too which added to the consistency of the bullets. With properly sized bullets and my proprietary lube, leading was not existent.

I always figgered that using bumped bullets, match prepped Lapua brass in a 30 BR chamber and a match grade SS barrel, with a Stolle action, Jewel 2 oz. trigger, and a 36 power scope, the guns were capable of .3 MOA.  Now, shooting that well in the conditions was another story!!!

Tom

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 14 July 2014

Thanks everyone for helping me understand this hobby a lot better. I decided to keep this first build simple, so I will be using a simple PTG piloted 308 Winchester reamer (.090 long lead .310 diameter). Grizzly sells these along with other style reamers. I almost purchased the 308 Fullbore version (.050 long lead .3085 diameter).


http://www.grizzly.com/products/-308-Winchester-Chambering-Finish-Reamer/T10185>http://www.grizzly.com/products/-308-Winchester-Chambering-Finish-Reamer/T10185

****   Check out their 5r barrels. http://bullets.com/search?s=brand:bartlein>http://bullets.com/search?s=brand:bartlein   http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/308_zps20bf8ea8.jpg.html>

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 14 July 2014

Check out Grizzly's PTG Uni Throater. This generic 30 cal reamer has a  large lead diameter of .3135 http://www.grizzly.com/products/30-Cal-Uni-Throater-Chambering-Finish-Reamer/T10471>http://www.grizzly.com/products/30-Cal-Uni-Throater-Chambering-Finish-Reamer/T10471


http://www.bullets.com>http://www.bullets.com hazmat fee now only $20.00

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 16 July 2014

Today I partially cut new 308 Winchester chamber just to see how easy it was to do. I cut until reamer touched case shoulder area then stopped. Later I will cut deeper to adjust for head space. Afterwards I viewed throat area with Hawkeye borescope, everything looks good. No burrs with evenly length cut lands. This new chamber looks LOTS better than my factory Remington chamber that is slightly offset and not concentric.

The lead or free bore area of this SAMMI spec reamer measured exactly .3100 diameter and .090 long as advertised. The steeper SAMMI taper into rifling will take longer to erode away.

Attached Files

Capote posted this 17 July 2014

0U812,    what are you using for lathe equipment to finish chamber ?

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 July 2014

that 1.75 degree throat will engrave about 1/8 inch, so it would be interesting to taper a front groove size band an 1/8 inch long to about 1.75 degrees.

( per side ) .

sounds like fun, let us kanowe how it shoots.

ken

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 17 July 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: that 1.75 degree throat will engrave about 1/8 inch, so it would be interesting to taper a front groove size band an 1/8 inch long to about 1.75 degrees. ( per side ) .

ken That would be interesting.  That along with a great hulking well fitted bore riding nose and very shallow seating in the case  so case and loaded round concentricity would be a dead issue would have to get a long bullet off to a good start.  What could go wrong? John

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 17 July 2014

Capote wrote: 0U812,    what are you using for lathe equipment to finish chamber ? No lathe is needed to finish ream a short chambered barrel. Just a T handle to hold reamer. I used the T handle from my tap and die set and Rapid Tap cutting fluid. I used compressed air to blow out chips between inspection. Very simple.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 19 July 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: that 1.75 degree throat will engrave about 1/8 inch, so it would be interesting to taper a front groove size band an 1/8 inch long to about 1.75 degrees.

( per side ) .

sounds like fun, let us kanowe how it shoots.

ken You are exactly right, the 1.75 degree throat engraves about 1/8"on Lee bullet. In my new SAMMI 308 chamber, the RCBS 165 sil does not have enough length to.bump taper front drive band to fit taper, but it will ride in the lead or freebore of chamber. The Lee bullets (Harris designs) will work perfectly for bumping up to fit taper.  Linotype bullets sized with .310 sizer die will not fit lead or free bore area, but will fit using the .309 sizer.

* I am now preparing to coat my  chrome moly barrel with Graphite Black Cerakote. I purchase 50lbs of 80 grit Garnet media (local Tractor Supply $29.00) to media blast barrel before spraying and baking. Cerakote recommends using 100-120, but some say 80grit will work also.

* What should I apply to barrel threads before final tightening barrel to receiver?  

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 July 2014

i like moly goop ...moly never-seize, moly bullet lube ... note: with moly, the barrel will easily turn a few degrees more than when you fitted it dry. i use about 40 inch-lbs. or a mild jerk ( g ) .

speaking of moly, it is useful to ease seating a snug fitting nose fat bullet. the trade off is that you might never get it out of your barrel. of course that is also the good news.

ain't this fun ?

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 20 July 2014

Thanks, I do have some Moroso Moly Paste. I purchased this stuff to coat inside the barrel of my PCP air rifle. I gained a little more velocity, but accuracy was not better. * Yes this is a fun learning experience. I am not complaining, but my cost so far

Barrel:.................. $220.00 Action wrench:............ $65.00 Go and No Go gauges:...... $70.00 308 Winchester Reamer:... $150.00 Cerakote kit:..............$45.00

80 grit Garnet sand:.......$29.00

Total:....................$579.00

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 27 July 2014

I painted barrel using just under 15ml of mixed Cerakote (Matte Graphite Black ceramic paint). This small kit will paint several more gun barrels. Then baked in oven @250 degrees for 2 hours. Next I have to clamp barrel between wooden blocks to tighten to receiver. I hope clamping the barrel does not marr finish.


 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 03 August 2014

The Cerakote is some tuff stuff, the finish held up without a scratch during clamping. I tightened receiver to barrel about 1/8” turn...maybe a little more than Ken recommended.

Went to the range to break in barrel using cheap pulled jacketed Magtech 162 grain bullets and Hodgdon Copper Fouling Eraser 223 powder. Velocity was held to about 2000fps. Accuracy was about 1 1/2 MOA at 100 yards during break in. Next trip I will load rounds using better Sierra 175 grain bullets and a few cast bullets (311284, RCBS 165 sil, etc.) I hope accuracy improves.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 August 2014

couple things ..

1) notice you bot a no-go gauge. by now you have probably noticed that for precision work you will never need this ( g ) . sell it y buy a brick of primers.

2) you mentioned tightening your barrel/action an 1/8 inch. you should turn it in to the exact place that did the final headspace; usually a scribed line on the barrel y action. since you can chamber rounds, you are ok, but might have a little less headspace than final chambering. i probably am mis- interpreting your comment, but just in case ...

i gots a beautiful sako 308 that shoots 4 moa with generic mj loads .. so it's nice to remember that mj have bad hair days also ( g ) .

ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 09 August 2014

So far the gun shoots very accurately. More accurate than factory barrel and easier to clean. I will post pictures of targets using few different loads. The RCBS 165sil bullet loaded with 22grs 4759 powder did verywell with no leading of barrel.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 15 August 2014

Here are my best targets so far. I still need to tweak powder charge a little bit more. This barrel likes snug fitting bore riding bullets best such as the RCBS 165 Sil, and Lyman 314299.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 15 August 2014

Here is the rifle. Barrel length is 26 with 1-10 twist. Shortening barrel to 22-24” may tighten groups more...along with better shooting skills

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 August 2014

to coin a phrase :::

” MISSION ACCOMPLISHED “

life is good ken

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 14 September 2014

I just want to say thanks again to all you guys that have helped me understand how to shoot cast bullets more accurately. People who are interested in this topic should read here. Quoting you guys would teach other cast shooters a lot.

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 14 September 2014

Looks like you have a winner there OU812. Nice work.

Attached Files

Close