I contacted Alliant Powder about using their Black MZ in flintlocks so I could share their response here: from me- I plan on Flintlock Rifle shooting with 75 gr Alliant Black MZ and a prime charge of 3 gr FFFF Goex Black Powder and cut agate flints for spark. Will ignition be dependable for hunting? Muzzleloader - Caliber: 50 Bullet Brand and Style: Lee R.E.A.L. Bullet Caliber: 50 Bullet Weight (Grains): 250 Alliant response- Gerard, As you most likely know, Alliant Black MZ is a black powder substitute that is the equivalent of FFg. Black MZ is used on a volume to volume basis to black powder. I see no problem with the ignition of the Black MZ with your set-up. Thanks, Shoot Straight DuaneVB CCI/SPEER/ALLIANT POWDER 2299 Snake River Ave. Lewiston, ID I am very happy with the response and hope you rock-lock shooters read this one! Now all I need is a weather warm up here to get shooting. My 75 grain volume load calculated from online resources and software say that it will push my 250 gr bullet to 1,530 fps for an energy level of 1,000 foot pounds impact at 100 yards for a deer hunting load from my 28” barrel, kit built Traditions Frontier Flintlock rifle. Gary
Alliant response: BMZ in Flintlocks
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- Last Post 23 November 2016
I am very happy with the response and hope you rock-lock shooters read this one! Now all I need is a weather warm up here to get shooting. My 75 grain volume load calculated from online resources and software say that it will push my 250 gr bullet to 1,530 fps for an energy level of 1,000 foot pounds impact at 100 yards for a deer hunting load from my 28” barrel, kit built Traditions Frontier Flintlock rifle.
Gary, You should find out for sure in about April, looks like the cold is here to stay in the NE. Longone
I tried it today in my 45 turner kirkland. Delay wasn't too much but it didn't fully combust.when seating the ball for the second shot partially combusted “goo” came out of the flash hole. So it's my feeling it's not a good choice in a rock lock.at least in my particular rifle.
I'm not sure why you want to try a propellant in a flintlock that isn't designed for it. Is it the desire to not be burdened by not having to clean the rifle as you would with black powder, or am I missing something? Several years ago Waksupi/Ric Carter built an Jim Chambers “Isaac Haines” FL for me (.54cal. Rice bbl.), which I use only with BP, Diamondback FFg mostly. Here's what I do to clean it: after plugging the vent, pour several ounces of “Friendship Speed Juice"* down the bbl. Let it sit for a minute, agitate, and repeat. Three or four flannel patches remove all the fouling, but I scrape the breech face just to make sure it's clean. A few more dry patches to absorb any remaining moisture, followed by a greased patch (left in place) suffice until I get home. Lastly, I spray WD-40 through the vent and on a patch and coat the bore. I check it the next day and reapply WD-40, ATF, or Marvel Mystery Oil, or a mixture of two of those, and have NO problems with rust or ignition. Btw, all of this could be done at the range, if I wished to carry those lubricants with me. Moreover, it takes no longer to clean the BP fouling from my muzzle loaders than it does CF rifles and pistols with smokeless powder and CB's. The lock? Less than a minute to clean and re-oil with WD-40. Added 10/19: However, if obtaining BP is difficult, impossible, or illegal, I certainly understand why you'd use one of the synthetics as I've had that problem too. In fact, BP is impossible to purchase locally, which means I have to order it from Graf & Sons or, better Jon Blackert @ Crater Fireworks and swallow both the Hazmat and shipping fees.
*equal parts isopropyl alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap, and household hydrogen peroxide. Although the latter is an oxidant, it is not in contact with the bore long enough to pose a problem. Warm water works too, but this solution is so much faster!
I'm with Maven. I order my BP from Coonies in New Mexico and get friends to share the order since they require a 25# order. The only difference between Maven and me is that I use Break free when lubing my muzzleloader locks. It's WD40 down the bore and plain gun oil on the outside.
I much prefer Ivory soap & water but in a pinch or when the fouling was real stubborn, I've resorted to the “Friendship Speed Juice.” It works as fast as Maven say's it does.
You know, with the exception of removing the 2 lock bolts and the lock, it took me as long to describe cleaning the rifle as the task itself.
If you read Onondaga's history he is a very strong proponent of Black MZ. He has been exploring its suitability in many firearms for a while now.
Although I should not speak for him, his past posts have focused on the benefits of Black MZ which I think make clear his intentions.
I Tried Black MZ at Garry's (Onondaga) urging in cap-lock, #209 In-line, and a couple of my flint lock rifles. It is outstanding for low velocity variations in in-line guns and no observable fouling. Hot (Magnum #11) caps appear to work better with Black MZ in my cap lock side-hammer rifles. I got inconsistent ignition using in in y\my flintlock rifles. Using 5-10 grains of FFFg down the barrel first, then the slightly reduced load of Black MZ gave excellent ignition and nearly zero fouling. Garry is on to something with this substitute powder. An old-timer chemist who shoots at my gun range suggested I mix a bit of finely powdered Aluminum or Magnesium into my priming powder to get better ignition with Black MZ. So far, I have resisted the temptation to try it. I like my eye-brows too much!
I hope you keep resisting the temptations and follow Alliant recommendations. Alliant doesn't recommend duplexing BMZ with any other propellant and claims BMZ is a direct replacement for 2F BP.
Also, do not fill flintlock primer pans above level with priming powder. That practice slows down the ignition cycle in flintlocks. I use 3 gr of 4F BP to prime my flintlock and consistency is excellent for the prime and also for the main charge of BMZ ignition in my flintlock.
I have never tried any percussion caps other than standard #11 CCI in my percussion side-locks and have 100% sure and fast ignition of BMZ.
WARNING: If you are seriously considering doing what your chemist friend said with powdered metal, contact Alliant about that as powdered metals in propellants change ignition and can cause explosion. Gary
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