Percussion Revolver ConicaBullets

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  • Last Post 22 June 2016
KyCaster posted this 04 June 2016

Does anyone have any experience or information regarding the Kaido 220 and 240gr. conicals for percussion cap revolvers?  These bullets with a 40 gr. Charge of black powder seem to produce ample power for a deer load at reasonable handgun distances. KyCaster

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onondaga posted this 04 June 2016

Are you actually shooting a cap and ball revolver that will hold 40 grains and a bullet that big? what is it?

Gary

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Ed Harris posted this 04 June 2016

Lee 250-grain R.E.A.L. and 30 grains of Pyrodex P in the Ruger Old Army develops 900 fps, about like the .45 Colt factory load, and is effective on deer at short range.

With the heavier bullet you will need a higher front sight to obtain a good zero. The 200-grain Lee R.E.A.L. and 35 grains of Pyrodex P also shoots high, but is closer to point of aim with the factory sights and is a viable alternate choice.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Maven posted this 04 June 2016

Ky caster, I was hoping Ed would chime in on this.  Also, check out Mike Beliveau's videos on U Tube as he's tried the conical you mentioned.  Btw, those videos are well presented and are found under Mike's persona, duelist1954.

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rodwha posted this 07 June 2016

I'm skeptical you could get 40 grns of a highly compressible synthetic powder under those bullets unless you are talking about a Dragoon or Walker or a ClassicBallistix cylinder in a ROA. No way BP would fit.

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KyCaster posted this 07 June 2016

Thanks, gentlemen, for all the expert replies.  In my search for info on a deer load for the Pietta .44 Remington, I have stumbled down some blind alleys, only to emerge with a clearer picture than before.  Duelist 54 videos offered some info on conicals and powder charges.  Kaido's 40 gr. Loads are clearly for the ROA.  I think Ed's suggestion of the Lee 200 gr. REAL will be my first choice to try.  As an experienced handgun hunter and bullseye shooter, the question is not ability to put the projectile where needed, but to make sure that sufficient firepower is present for an ethical shot.Thanks again,Bill

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onondaga posted this 07 June 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=9573>KyCaster

You mention,  "but to make sure that sufficient firepower is present for an ethical shot". This looks hopeless to me for a Pietta .44 with a 200 gr. R.E.A.L.

You can't draw the ethical line in the place that I do and achieve a Deer load with that bullet and a Pietta revolver load if you regard hunting guide recommendations of 1,000 foot pounds impact on Deer as a humane harvest load. If you do, the 200 gr bullet needs 1620 fps muzzle velocity to deliver 1,000 foot pounds at 30 yards. That is impossible with the Pietta. Sure people kill deer with a lot less power but that lies way short of ethical harvest to me.

A pretty answer just isn't there in the power department for a humane harvest of Deer with that firearm and bullet.

I'm sure that is not what you want to hear and some will disagree with me loudly, but I do give you my recommendation. Run the numbers and see the energy levels predicted for any bullet weight and velocity here: http://handloads.com/calc/index.html>http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

I have extensively used .44 Cal. BP revolvers. The only game I have ever used them on is Squirrel, Racoon, Woodchuck, Snapping Turtle, and to kill Muskrat when trapped. I'd never consider the .44 BP revolver with any load suitable for Deer except for a point blank brain shot mercy killing.

A suggestion to consider is a single shot muzzle loading pistol, they can be loaded without the powder volume limitation of a revolver. I have carried the CVA .50 Cal. single shot pistol as a backup when hunting Deer with an ML rifle and loaded the pistol for the occasion with 85 gr 3F and a R.E.A.L. 250. I could group 10” at 20 yards with that single shot pistol/load  and that was where I placed my ethical range limit for it. I even consider that light but marginally manageable to 20 yards for Deer.

Gary

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KyCaster posted this 08 June 2016

Gary,Thanks for running the numbers for me, that is just the input I am looking for.  I had roughly calculated some muzzle kinetic energy levels at different velocities, but lacking chronographed velocities at specific powder charges in real-life application from my revolver, that exercise was not informative.  Thanks, also, for providing the 1,000 ft. pound value as a goal.  In the future, I will reference the calculation tool you provided.  I appreciate the time you have spent on my project.Thanks again,Bill

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rodwha posted this 08 June 2016

The 1000 ft/lb magic number is hocus pocus. Kaido's 240 grn bullet through a reproduction Remington New Model Army with an energetic powder, most likely Triple 7 as that's what I see most of them talk about using, went nose to tail through an adult hog. It had well under 500 ft/lbs and was quite leathal and ethical. Don't get me started on that magic number being necessary as I've given plenty of evidence to the contrary last time, and it seems Gary is one of the few who stand behind his stance since it's simply not true.

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rodwha posted this 08 June 2016

Wild Bill killed Tutt dead (instantly) from a measured 75 yds with his cap and ball pistol. Most claim it was one of his favored .36 cal Colts and some think it a .44 cal 1848 “Dragoon."

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KyCaster posted this 10 June 2016

He did, indeed.  A testament to the value of shot placement.  My Ruger Blackhawk deer load of 270 gr. bullet at approx. 1,000+ ft/s produces about 600 ft/lbf, and I know how effective it is, to a point (25-30 yds), if I do my part. Thanks to all of you for sharing, Bill

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rodwha posted this 10 June 2016

I truly find this magic number theory a bit odd as it excludes every relevant portion of the projectile such as construction, diameter, and sectional density. I'll take a .45 cal bullet of average weight in a hard cast wide flat point with just 500 ft/lbs to a .22 cal bullet of even a proper medium game bullet construction at his 1000 ft/lb rule. I actually like the way the Taylor theory looks at this.

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KyCaster posted this 15 June 2016

All of the methods used to determine “stopping power” of a projectile (KE, momentum, Taylor's, and others) offer interesting, albeit incomplete, data for effectiveness.  In none of them is an accounting for bullet hardness or shape (soft or hard cast, jacketed, hollow point, etc.).  There is also no factor to account for the differences in “vigor” in different animal species.  Trial and error and experience, though not quantifiable, are important.

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rodwha posted this 16 June 2016

Very much so. Their theories offer a glimpse at a piece of an unknown. Bullet design and construction are rarely spoken of and not in any of the formulas I've seen.

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tturner53 posted this 21 June 2016

Any 'cookbook' loads re. conicals in the Pietta 1858 Remington copy? You know, bear stompin' up close type loads.

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rodwha posted this 22 June 2016

I cannot find a link, but there's a written account of a grizzly encounter where solders had been shooting it with their .36 cal revolvers (Colt '51 Navy?) without much effect. An officer road up and dispatched the bear with two shots from his .44 cal revolver (Colt '48 Horse Pistol known today as the Dragoon).  It seems as though he was using conicals. The Hazard's Pistol Powder paper cartridges from the Civil War were tested and found to contain 4F powder that was similar to Swiss and Olde Eynsford in power. I don't recall the amount of powder or the weight of the conical, but permission was given to copy and pass along his work, which contains plenty of references. My Remington NMA does best with 30 grns of either Olde E or Triple 7 with a ball, my 170 and 195 grn WFN bullet. Judging by chronographed results using he same powders I estimate this load to produce 350-400 ft/lbs or about like a .45 ACP. This isn't a max load as I know it'll hold no less than 5 more grns. I wouldn't feel too comfortable with that on a bear unless I had no choice. But for my ROA I designed a 285 grn WFN bullet in case I had the opportunity to hunt black bears in VA, but this would only be as a backup to my .50 cal rifle. But the ROA can hold about 5 grns more than the Remington and can produce over 500 ft/lbs depending on the load.

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