Alloy of tin and lead

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  • Last Post 21 December 2016
Coyote1 posted this 01 December 2016

Hy people, I am new to this forum and new to bullet casting and need some advice. I have pure (99%) tin and (99%) lead and want to know how many ounces of tin to add to 1 pound of lead to cast 9mm, 45 acp, 38 special and 357 magnum? If you have answers please let me know via email if you will. I live on a farm most of the time and internet is iffy sometimes. Thanks Gary [email protected]

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David Reiss posted this 01 December 2016

Gary, If you can get some wheel weights, this will give you the needed antimony & arsenic you will need for hard enough bullets. WWs are a cheap & easy way to obtain these. Tin will not harden your alloy, but it is needed to help fill the cavities, making well formed, flat based bullets. Once you have the WWs you can use your pure lead & tin to alloy several useful alloys. You can go the route and buy alloys from places like ROTOMetals and use your lead & tin, but again WWs are sufficient and cheap. Once you get the WWs let me know and I can send you all types of info for making various alloys.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Ed Harris posted this 08 December 2016

For full charge loads in 9mm, .45 ACP and .357 Magnum you want to use something other than a tin-lead alloy.

1 to 30 tin-lead is about 9 BHN and works well for revolver bullets up through .38 Special +P, .44-40 and .45 Colt, but for autopistol and magnum loads you want harder alloy of 12-13 BHN.

Even 1 to10 tin-lead is not going to do this for you, and it is a costly absurdity to waste that expensive tin trying to make “hard: bullets.

My advice to you is to find a source of inexpensive scrap lead having about 3% antimony, such as wheelweights or backstop scrap, and add only a little tin to it to improve casting quality, and to use that for your 9mm, .45 ACP and .357 bullets. Wheelweights with 2% tin added will run about 13 BHN and will do very well for that purpose at modest cost. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Coyote1 posted this 12 December 2016

Ed,

Thank you very much. I have not been able to log in for about 21/2 weeks until today.

I happened to find some wheel weights and was able to smelt then, with an old cast iron pot and a propane weed burner, to get most of the junk and clips out along with one weight that floated to the top. Ended up with 18.9 pounds of muffin pan size pucks.

Now I will feel comfortable putting some in my casting pot.

Coyote1

Gary Owens

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onondaga posted this 12 December 2016

Coyote1

Confidence in your alloy application would rise substantially for yourself if you get a hardness tester. I use the Lee hardness tester and like the ease and consistency of using it on my loading press for checking finished bullets or correctly air cooled ingots.

 

Gary

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David Reiss posted this 12 December 2016

I have been casting for 40 years and found that a hardness tester is not really necessary. Known alloys get you close enough and heat treating can increase the hardness enough for higher velocities. Again, shooting them will tell you if they are hard enough. They are nice to play with, but most people I have talked to say they end-up selling them or putting them on the back shelf where they stay collecting dust. Since you are a beginning caster (unless you are Trump rich), your money would  be better spent on molds, lubes (or components of such), sizing dies, powder, primers, etc. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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David Reiss posted this 13 December 2016

David,

How dare you knock hardness testers.  I love all three of mine even though the don't give the same results.  I just take the result I like and go from there.

Mike,

So now your are a comedian. Why do you have 3? Did someone have a sale? 

David

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Lee Guthrie posted this 13 December 2016

If you use the LBT tester you will be within 2 brinnel of correct.

Lead hardness testers are a very handy and useful tool, although not so much for newbies.  For old geezers who on occasion forget to write down what alloy was used or fail to mark what such and such pile of ingots is, they come in real handy.

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David Reiss posted this 20 December 2016

I guess I don't qualify as an “old geezer' yet, but the testimonials from them sound logic. I will have to admit the people I have talked to probably didn't have the experience as Lee or Mike. Soooooo......... I may have to buy one. I will also add that I have read good things about the Cabin Tree, now at http://cowboybullets.com/ST-Machining-Products_c_17.html

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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SierraHunter posted this 20 December 2016

Hardness tester is a bit of a necessity for Me since most of my cast bullets I shoot are rescue bullets from my dad's basement, and he always fails to mark them with what they are.

As for making your alloy just a bit harder, reclaimed lead shot it a excellent cheap source of antimony. 20-1-1 lead-tin-shot should get you a 12 BHN bullet easily, and probably 18 or so if you water quench them.

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Coyote1 posted this 20 December 2016

Two questions about info in your post.

When, why, and how do you water quench bullets?

Where do I find reclaimed shotgun shot?

Thank ya'll (Texan,maybe Southern, for all of you) of your help.You may well, fast forward a newbees education that took years to learn.

Coyote1

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SierraHunter posted this 20 December 2016

Water quenching cools the bullet faster, and makes them harder then air cooling them. Usually the bullets are dropped straight from the mold, and directly into a bucket of cold water. A person could also heat treat already cast bullets by heating them in a oven to just below the slump point and then dumping them into water.

As for shot, it can be found in junk yards sometimes skeet ranges have it for sale, eBay, or just a online search may turn some up. It's not too hard to find. In a pinch, new shot will work, but is more expansive.

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onondaga posted this 21 December 2016

SierraHunter

 

You mention a, "cheap source of antimony. 20-1-1 lead-tin-shot should get you a 12 BHN bullet easily,"

20:1:1 Lead: Tin: Antimony alloy is not close to any commercial bird shot alloy. Look at the math:

At 20:1:1 you have 90.909% Lead plus 4.545% Tin and 4.545% Antimony. The hardest available commercial Lead shot alloy has 95% Lead plus 5% Antimony and 0% Tin. That alloy will chill harden well when casting. You won't make it  much harder unless you increase the % of Antimony because Tin only raises BHN by .3 for every 1% of Tin.

 

Basic Rules for Hardening Lead- 

For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

When you know the percentages of Lead, Tin and Antimony in an alloy you can easily and accurately determine the as cast and air cooled BHN hardness of the alloy by the formula. I ain't a math teacher but you can easily and accurately determine the as cast BHN of 20:1:1 with math. Try the math and tell what you get rounded to 3 decimals.

 

The formula is what lead hardness testing tools are based on and the formula is more accurate than the tools for as cast Lead:Tin :Antimony alloys.

 

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 21 December 2016

I thought there was more antimony in lead shot then that. That would be quite the blunder on my part, and I apologize for providing false information.

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onondaga posted this 21 December 2016

SierraHunter

There is some metallurgy that makes common sense about bird-shot. It is an accepted historical fact that more than 5% antimony in shot or bullet lead alloys make them prone to fragmentation on impact. Tin will increase malleability and reduce fragmentation in lead bullet alloys. Lyman #2 at 90:5:5 is very researched and proven for well over 100 years and is the most desired bullet alloy for hunters using cast bullets. At humane hunting load levels #2 alloy flat nose bullets double in caliber on impact, lose 0% weight and pass through by design. Jacketed bullets only dream of that.

 

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 21 December 2016

I've always liked a very soft paper patch for hunting with CB in a big bore. The only cast bullet I've ever hunted big game with that was not PP was the 200gn RCBS out of a 35 Remington cast from WQWW

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