Harrison's 30 caliber paper patched bullets

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  • Last Post 19 January 2010
RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2008

Has anyone ever had an experience with Harrison's paper patched 30 caliber bullets that he developed in the 1970's?

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 08 January 2008

No. But the .30 caliber in PP has caught my attention. One can get serious velocity with accuracy with PP. Getting it to work with the smaller diameters is a battle of the reality of being all thumbs.

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Ed Harris posted this 08 January 2008

I shot alot of them when I was at the NRA and along with Bob Sears assisted Col. Harrison in load preparation and testing. These days my fingers are too arthritic to do it easily.

If you have questions I'll try to answer what I can from memory.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JimmyDee posted this 08 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: If you have questions...Standby!

I've never heard of such a thing so: Google time!  (What the...  How could I have missed this?)

Ed, are jacketed velocities readily attainable using 30 caliber cast PP bullets?

I haven't considerd using cast 30 caliber bullets on game at distances greater than what I would use an iron-sighted 45-70 on (for me: say, 100 yards) but, if I could get a flatnose 200gr bullet moving at better than 2700fps and the paperpatch allowed some flexibility with respect to bullet hardness, I might reconsider.  Offhand, do you think paperpatched 30 cal bullets have any application on game  out to, say, 250 yards?

I'm not going to pester you with all my questions -- what reading do you recommend?

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Ed Harris posted this 08 January 2008

Yes,

Jacketed velocities are possible in the .308, .30-'06 and .300 Win Mag. You'll need to go back and research the American Rifleman articles. We used full charge loads of WC760 in the .308 and '06 with 200-gr. bullets and WC785 in the .300 Win. Mag. I shot these at Quantico out to 1000 yards with good accuracy equal to M118 and M72 Match ammo.

Wouldn't recommend them for hunting as heavy loads require strong alloys such as linotype at pressures which are approaching 50,000 cup. These do not perform well for hunting loads, but shatter upon impact and would cause poor penetration with a violent surface wound like a varmint bullet.  The alloys which work best for hunting bullets from 12-14 BHN do not enable appreciably higher velocities with PP than you can get with a properly set up lubricated GC bullet.   The hunting bullet thread elsewhere on the forum explains dilute lead alloys and heat treatment.

The paper patch itself does not hold against the shear of the rifling. Recovering fired bullets indicates that the bullet obturates to fill the grooves, the patch acts simply as a jacket and lubricant. Best results were with 16 lb. 25% cotton content Southworth Four Star Bond lubricated with dry Teflon spray.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2008

Ed,

This project isn't on the front burner, but I am thinking about working with these for the 2009 season.

  1. Can they be made to shoot more accurately than plain lubed bullets? Velocity is not an issue here, just how small of 10 shot groups can I make. I don't mind spending the time to make them if they are advantageous.

  2. For a hunting bullet, what is the velocity limit with 2 MOA accuracy could I expect? I would think that with a 98/2 alloy at about 2000 f/s, it would make a nice deer load.

Thanks,

Ric

p.s. Joe has his 32 HRM bunny gun done, I'm still looking for the right action.

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Ed Harris posted this 08 January 2008

Ric,

In a smooth barrel, with properly designed bullet which fits and is well lubricated I foresee no problem with a 12 BHN GC bullet at 2000 f.p.s. giving 2 moa hunting accuracy for about a half-dozen or so rounds.  I do it all the time in the '06, .303 British and the Krag. Ballistics like the old .303 Savage. Fine deer load to 150 yards.

Bullet fit is key. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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DonH posted this 08 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote:  Best results were with 16 lb. 25% cotton content Southworth Four Star Bond lubricated with dry Teflon spray.

Ed;

 

Do you know offhand what the thickness of that paper is?

I will go on a search for that material in the rifleman. I have them back to 75 or thereabouts.

Don

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R. Dupraz posted this 08 January 2008

Don:

If you don't have those early Rifleman with the paper patch articals, I do. I have them back to the early 60's and remember reading about those paper patch tests. I could be enticed into finding them if you want.

Interesting subject. Started paper patching last fall for my .45x2.4 Sharps with some promising results so far.

RD

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LWesthoff posted this 08 January 2008

Save you all a little time researching Rifleman Paper Patch articles: March, August & November '72 March '74 January, September & November '75 March, October (2 articles) & December '77 January, July (2 articles) & November 78 All these pieces are reprinted in the NRA publication “Cast Bullets” which is, of course, out of print. Mine is NOT for sale. Wes

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RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2008

My copy of the NRA's Cast Bullets is not for sale either! Last copy I saw on Ebay went for about $65!

The mould I have is just marked “30 cal. NRA” and I will start working on accuracy loads some time this summer.

Ric

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linoww posted this 09 January 2008

p.s. Joe has his 32 HRM bunny gun done, I'm still looking for the right action.

 

I shot it today with him at lunch ,pretty darn fun.I may have one commisioned.

 

George

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2008

PLEASE post pictures of the “bunny guns” and groups, give details on loads, etc. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start a trend? 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 11 January 2008

Not yet! Not yet! I'm still looking for a tight small frame action with good wood for mine! Then we can start a trend. Ric

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delmarskid1 posted this 14 January 2008

ED HARRIS! That's where I remember that name from! I messed with that 200g paper patch mold most of '91. I got it to work pretty well in my .308. I never got the 165g to go as fast as I wanted it to so I sold the mold. With the price of gas checks I've been thinking of giving it another try.

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beltfed posted this 11 December 2008

Years ago I did some of that paper patching for a 30-06 Spfld according to the Harris developments. Used the 301620, 165 gr Lyman.

I also did some hunting rifle paper patching- very successfully with my 358 Win( see other 35 cal thread.

And even paper  patched some bullets for my 375 HH Improved to shoot deer with.

Now, I my interest in cast bullets is rekindled, mostly for BPCR, but also would like to

purchase one of the old Lyman 310620, for the 200 gr PP bullet . Want to work up PP loads for a 30USA that I have built- both for BP loads and for smokeless loads.

beltfed/Arnie

 

 

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redball2 posted this 17 December 2008

nei makes clones of the lyman 30 cal bullet moulds. they do work. just follow col Harrisons instructions.

Jim wilcox

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beltfed posted this 18 December 2008

Thank you  Jim,

I had checked with NEI.  The only mold close to the one I want, the 301620, at 200 grains , is their   304.200 PP.  The dia is too darned big dia for my Obermeyer barrel(0.2985” land dia) 30USA, or even one or more of my more standard 30 cal barrels.

Guess I will mess with my shorter  301618, the  165 grain Lyman PP bullet, but that is rather short for my 8.5 twist barrel.

beltfed/Arnie

 

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lastmanout posted this 18 January 2009

Thanks for the info, Ed. I really enjoyed the articles you and the team authored in the Rifleman.

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Gunrunner posted this 01 April 2009

Hi all

I'm currently working on a paper patch load in 8mm mauser for my M48. I'm just waiting for my next range session. My bullet is a Lee 185 that drops at .314. I use college rule loose leaf notebook paper cut 4 lines wide and 2.5 inches long. I have one line extend past the bullet base to form a tail and I wrap the bullet on wax paper and wet the paper with plain water. I wrap the bullet to .328-.329 and size it down to .325 with a Lee push thru sizer lubing it with Imperial sizing wax. Test charges are 43-44.5 grains of Hodgdon Varget. Theres some good discussions on http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38 regarding paper patching.

                                  Mike

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tturner53 posted this 13 August 2009

To quote SGT. Schultz, “Very Interesting". Going blind reading up on paper patching. I need a custom mold for my .318 bore .303 #4Mk1, BUT, this is really getting me thinking there may be another way to go at least for now. Any reason I can't wrap my Saeco 315 up to say .319? I have several other .30 cal molds, something ought to work. Do you still use a gas check for full house loads with PP?

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Maven posted this 13 August 2009

Paul Matthews, who wrote several books on paper patching, didn't use specialized bullet molds exclusively.  In fact, many CB designs will work if they're well fitted.  Your Saeco #315, without a gas check, would be an excellent choice since it is small enough as cast to patch up (2 wraps) to .319” or even .320".  (Harrison's custom designed Lyman molds cast @ .301".)  A few suggestions:  Unless you plan to push your PP CB's to the highest velocities, you don't need to use expensive linotype.  Second, I'd use a propellant that will -> 1,600fps to begin with (16 grs. Alliant 2400 for ex.) and then switch to slower powders to reach 1,700fps - 1,800fps or faster until you find a consistently accurate load.  Lastly, look at the Cast Boolits > Paper Patching section, particularly docone31 postings for some very innovative ideas.

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tturner53 posted this 13 August 2009

Thanks Maven, I'll check out the Boolits PP section. I also have that old Rifleman book that I'll be studying. This hobby is turning out to be like an onion with all the layers. My long range goal with this gun is Milsurp silhouettes and CBA benchrest, if I can get 'er shooting. The silhouettes will take all the oomph I can get to knock 'em down. The Marshall writings I've heard about and available here, does he cover PP too? I recently did a little experiment about “cheap and simple". I'm thinking the PB and PP guys are way ahead of me.

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Maven posted this 14 August 2009

While you're at the Cast Boolits site, check out the first sticky, “Paper 101,” in the Paper Patching section.  As for Frank Marshall, Jr.'s writings, I don't know whether he ever wrote about PP, but I'm sure there are many here who know more than I about that.  I've generally followed E.H. Harrison's very clear procedures for paper patching, but not his load recommendations.  Moreover, you needn't always use #16 cotton rag paper as some have reported success with ordinary printer paper, but it doesn't have the strength of the former when wet.  Lastly, wheelweights and unalloyed Pb, especially Pb, may be just the ticket if you intend to hunt with PPCB's.

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tturner53 posted this 14 August 2009

For the CBA benchrest accuracy will be everything. For the 500 yd. rams I'll need power too, but maybe not as much as I think. Tomorrow I get my feet wet in silhouette with jacketed, have some fun and learn the game. Wineman has offered to help me along on this first match. I know I have a copy of NRA's 'Cast Bullets” somewhere around here, I'll read that again and the PP 101 thread over, and probably any thing else I can find. This paper patching thing has really caught my interest.

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Richard Meissner posted this 18 January 2010

Hi All,

Recently I bought a Lyman 173 gr (311041) bullet mould for my .303 British (US Property Savage). The barrel measures .312 and the bullet casts .314. I would like to PP these bullets but don't know enough yet to go this route. A couple of questions then: 1. Do I need to size the bullets down to a smaller size? If so, to which size? 2. Is it absolutely necessary to use cotton paper or would artist drawing paper (46 gram/square meter; metric system here since I am in South Africa) do? 3. What smokeless powder charge (starting load) in IMR3031 would you recommend? (Here, we use Somchem S335, which comes closest, in terms of burn rate, to IMR3031).

Richard

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Brodie posted this 19 January 2010

Richard;

!. Measure the thickness of your paper,  multiply by four and subtract from the diameter of your bullet.  This is the diameter you will have to size  your bullets to.

Wrap the patch on wet using either your finagers or a cigarette roller.

Twist and fold the tail aaaainto the base of the bullet.  LET IT DRY COMPLETELY.

Lube lightly with paste wax and size to .001 to .002 in greater than the bore diameter.

Read postings and stickies on paper patch section of Cast Bullits Forum.  \

Good luck.

 

B.E.Brickey

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Brodie posted this 19 January 2010

Richard; As to powder charge: I am not a balistician, but the considered wisdom is to start with the Lowest Recommended charge listed for YOUR CHOSEN POWDER  and closest jacketed bullet weight in your calibre as listed in your loading data.  This should be a safe place to start.

B.E.Brickey

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Richard Meissner posted this 19 January 2010

Old Coot,

 

Thank you very much for the information.

Richard

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