I would like to use Accurate No.9 in .308 Win with a 150 grains GC Saeco bullet #316 or with a Lyman 311299 GC 200 grain: I have slugged the barrel of the FR-8 and it is .308.
I would like to get some recommendations for loads please.
Thanks.
PV
I would like to use Accurate No.9 in .308 Win with a 150 grains GC Saeco bullet #316 or with a Lyman 311299 GC 200 grain: I have slugged the barrel of the FR-8 and it is .308.
I would like to get some recommendations for loads please.
Thanks.
PV
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I have used 18-19.5 of AA#9 in the 308 with the heavier bullets.I never used anything lighter than 180 grains.Accuracy was good in Remington 308's.
Not sure if the reduced ball powder in rifles warnings apply to #9,but i never had any trouble.I shot about 8# of it in the 308 ad 30-30's
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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FYI. Fr8 Spanish Mauser is not 308. It is 7.62 Nato. Loads are different.
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Thank you for pointing that out. I have read about the difference between 7,62x51 Nato and .308 Win. some time ago.
I use a Lee collet die and the ballistic program Quickload calculation shows that the pressure is +/- 25000 psi with the Lyman 200gr and a load of 18.0 grains A No.9 I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used . Thanks. PV
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FYI. Fr8 Spanish Mauser is not 308. It is 7.62 Nato. Loads are different.
There should be no large difference in cast bullet low pressure range loads I would think.Jacketed full loads are a different situation.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used .
Thanks.
PV
I would not reduce or raise that load as i never used any other charges.I also have shot W296 in the 308 and in same charge ranges,but it is not recommended by others.There is load data for it in the RCBS cast bullet manual from the 1980's that make me feel warranted in using it.CE Harris had Olin run some data with w296 in the 80's with cast bullets and they didn't like the way it behaved and wouldn't recommend it as a reduced load in rifles.I would lean towards the powder companies data and not my personal experience with 296,who knows i may just be a shot away from a disaster? I have never heard problems with AA#9 though.maybe others here could verify this.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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303pv
I use 18 grs acc no.9 with a lee 150 grs lead bullit. in my Winch.M70 308 W.
Its works perfect and have a smal group on 100 meter.
Leo 367
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Dag Leo,
Thanks . Did you haveany unburned powder in the barrel? Did you measure the velocity?
Bedankt,
PV
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I think anyone who says the .308 Win and the 7.62 Nato aren't the same cartridge is confusing the difference between a SAAMI chamber and a “generous” military chamber intended to function with either dirt in the action or dirty ammo.
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Aan 303pv
Ik heb geen onverbrand kruit in de loop. Een snelheidsmeter heb ik niet, maar weet dat het volkomen veilig is. Ik gebruik ook 150 Lee met gascheck , geeft bij mij een kleine groep.Expirimenteer veel met andere kruitsoorten en ladingen.,zoals 5744, VV N120.aac 8700 . dit gaat allemaal. De gasdrukken zijn vrij laag.
Mocht je nog meer info willen ,laat het me weten. Heb redelijk veel ervaring.
Ik gok er op dat je Nederlands spreekt, zo niet genoeg kan ik altijd in het Engels verder gaan. Laat maar weten.
Voor de goede orde, ik gebruik alleen maar cast bullits met gascheck
Groeten Leo 367
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Leo, thanks for the information.
I think that we should only use English.Otherwise other people will not be able to understand what is said.
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to 303 pv
Can you give info about the price of powder in Luxenburg? In Holland we have crazy prices. By exemple: VV 100 serie : 65 till 70 euro pro kilo. Accurate 60 till 66 euro pro kilo. American powders : 39.euro pro 1 lbs. Primers 30 till33 euro pro 1000. you see very expensif.
Regards Leo 367
.
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I would be cautious with pre 98 mauser actions and 308 w or 7,62 Nato loads.
Those actions were made for 7x57 mauser or 6.5 Swede.
The old 7.62 Nato round was adopted by Spain as the 7.62 CETME load,a 130 gr bullet load with lighter pressures adapted to the Spanish Cetme assault rifle and the various 92 and 95 actions.
If you want big bangs,get an used modern magnum american made rifle,the louder the bangs the newer the used guns are.
I still own a ruger 416 rigby bolt rifle,with a box of 16 loaded cartridges,you guess the piece had been fired once at the Italian proof house and four times by the first owner.
I shoot only cast bullets.
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Giorgio,
The FR-8 is a 98 action . The original 8x57 IS was not a low pressure cartridge in the original military loading.
I want to get the best accuracy at 100 m with a cast bullet. I have three molds
1 saeco 150 gr. A Lee 180 gr. and a Lyman 200 grain. I made some loads with
VV N110, A No.9, H4198 and VV N140 with a filler. Now I just need some time to go to the range!
Leo, prices in Luxembourg are somewhat lower, but comparable.
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Giorgio,
The FR-8 is a 98 action . The original 8x57 IS was not a low pressure cartridge in the original military loading.
I want to get the best accuracy at 100 m with a cast bullet. I have three molds
1 saeco 150 gr. A Lee 180 gr. and a Lyman 200 grain. I made some loads with
VV N110, A No.9, H4198 and VV N140 with a filler. Now I just need some time to go to the range!
Leo, prices in Luxembourg are somewhat lower, but comparable.
Gary
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I have tried lots of loads . The best results I got were with Vectan A1 . That is close to Unique in burning rate. The groups in the picture are with 11.0 grains A1 at 50 m. I did not continue with No.9 because I did not get good results.
The bullet was cast with a Lee C312-185-1R mold . The WW weights plus 2% Tin had a hardness of BHN 14. The upper group measured 35 mm (without the 2 fliers) and the lower group is 48 mm. I discovered that the bullet must make a considerable jump before entering the barrel when seated with the upper grease groove outside the case. Therefore I have asked Veral Smith of LBT to cut a mold for this rifle .
I will post the results with the bullets cast with the new LBT mold.
I also want to look at the influence of the flash suppressor.
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Your groups are very similar to mine, except I am using a much lighter bullet. Right now I am experimenting with Codarnall's Freechex and I am getting good results with the Lyman 311599 sized .310 and lubed with Lee Alox (NRA formula). So far I have achieved the best accuracy with 12 to 13 grs of Unique. I haven't cast the chamber yet, but the throat on these rifles must very large as I cant seat the bullets out far enough to touch the rifling. My next plan is to try the Lee C312-155-2R with Unique, 2400 and Rx 7. This rifle shots extremely well with 150 gr jacketed bullets, so I hope to get some equally accurate loads with my cast bullets.
Gary
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I also have an FR8 that also shoots very well with 150 gn jacketed. I'm planning on trying the Lyman 314299. It has a good reputation for performance in military rifles. I'll try Unique first, then maybe SR4759. The use of ball powders concerns me because I'm not sure the phenomenon of the extreme pressures generated in some loads is fully understood (at least by me), so I stay away from them. The FR8s are large ring actions and are chambered and rated for full power 7.62X51 NATO ammo. The NATO chamber dimensions are slightly longer (.0005, off the top of my head) so I think the only thing to be concerned about is repeatedly full length resizing with a 308 Wichester die set. This could lead to early brass failure with full power loads. Military brass also has slightly reduced capacity compared to 308 brass, so loads should be adjusted accordingly.
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Years ago I tried using the 314299 with 2400 and Rx7, but I never achieved any satisfactory groups and I just gave up on it with heavy bullets. Let me know how your groups work out.
G
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Thank you for pointing that out. I have read about the difference between 7,62x51 Nato and .308 Win. some time ago.
I use a Lee collet die and the ballistic program Quickload calculation shows that the pressure is +/- 25000 psi with the Lyman 200gr and a load of 18.0 grains A No.9
I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used .
Thanks.
PV
I have been experimenting a little with cast bullets in .30-30 .
You all have me interested , now , about cast bullets for military rifles . I have a FAL , Garands ( including a 7.62 NATO one ) and a M1A .
So , I am asking for advice for 7.62 NATO for gas guns ?
The lever guns seem to like big ( .310” to .312” ) cast bullets . How about the gas guns ? Or do they do better arounf .308” - .309" ?
God bless Wyr
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Wyr
I have experience with bolt actions, not semi auto like Fal and Garand.But you can try the loads in a semi auto. I use the 180 grs rcbs with gascheck , sized .309 20 grs Acc5744 , 22 grs Acc 5744 150 Gc Lee. It is in an semi auto maby not enough for repeating.
For 30-06 is 25 grs Vito Vu and 180 rcbs GC an exelent load in my Parker Hale.The Lyman cast handbook gives a lot of loads .
Leo367
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Wyr
I have experience with bolt actions, not semi auto like Fal and Garand.But you can try the loads in a semi auto. I use the 180 grs rcbs with gascheck , sized .309 20 grs Acc5744 , 22 grs Acc 5744 150 Gc Lee. It is in an semi auto maby not enough for repeating.
For 30-06 is 25 grs Vito Vu and 180 rcbs GC an exelent load in my Parker Hale.The Lyman cast handbook gives a lot of loads .
Leo367
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Thank you for pointing that out. I have read about the difference between 7,62x51 Nato and .308 Win. some time ago.
I use a Lee collet die and the ballistic program Quickload calculation shows that the pressure is +/- 25000 psi with the Lyman 200gr and a load of 18.0 grains A No.9
I have seen advice about not using reduced loads with ball powders.But the experience of linoww shows that ball powders can be used .
Thanks.
PV
I have a Century Arms M14 w/Fed Ord receiver w/all Chicom parts, unitized and NM sights. My first CB load was 29.5 gr H335, R-P brass, WLR primers and a 150 gr NEI mold bullet sized .309. 10 shots at 50 yds w/2 called flyers and the 8 good ones were in .750 x .880. Light enough crimp to feed from the magazine. Worked the action nicely.
I tried 0.5 gr higher and lower, but the 29.5 gr load was best. Got started on this w/data from Bruce and am pleased.
Next I will slug the bore and size as appropriate, and go to 100 yds. I tried 311041 GC w/no luck.I also have an excellent FR-8 and will try CB in it. Same load.
Cheers
DB
I have been experimenting a little with cast bullets in .30-30 .
You all have me interested , now , about cast bullets for military rifles . I have a FAL , Garands ( including a 7.62 NATO one ) and a M1A .
So , I am asking for advice for 7.62 NATO for gas guns ?
The lever guns seem to like big ( .310” to .312” ) cast bullets . How about the gas guns ? Or do they do better arounf .308” - .309" ?
God bless Wyr
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:dude:
Two things here, the original WW2 8mm Mauser load IS a fairly low pressure load, around 40000 PSI, well below '98 action strength, The military loads kick because most were mostly loaded with a 198 gr proji. The FR7/8 were rifled with a 1 in 12 twist, hence they shoot well with light bullets and cast heavy ones. All FR7/8's have relieved chambers and can split cases at times, just make sure you use a space filler when using light powder charges with the lead bullets. For fun, you may want to try some 32 ACP 100 grain jackets in it at high speed, they shoot small groups without pressure signs in my FR8.
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Hi ,
I found some pressure data in an NRA publication.(Mauser Rifles; American Rifleman reprint 1980). It says that in 1903 a load with an 154 grain S bullet gave a velocity of 2870 fps , chamber pressure 49805 psi. This was the 8x57 IS. The 8x57 I : 226 grain, 2100 fps, 45536 psi.
The 8x57 IS was and is not low pressure cartridge. Current CIP max pressure is 56565 psi. SAAMI list the cartridge max pressure as 35000 psi, but that is because they are afraid that someone will fire an .323” bullet through a .318” barrel.
I don't like to shoot the K98k. But that is because the sights are quite low on the rifle. This causes a very unnatural hold for me on the rifle. Felt recoil is much worse than with an FR-8.
I have shot the Israeli K98 rebarreled to .308 and the Columbian FN produced Mauser in .30-06.The caliber does not matter it is the stock in combination with the sights that makes the reccoil unpleasant. (at least for me).
I have not yet found a load with the LBT bullet that is as good as the result obtained with the RFI 2A1 (Indian SMLE 308 W ) . I Think that has a lot to do with the front sight. I had changed it to a post type, but I changed back to the original and that is a cone shape. Let's see ...
The barrel of the FR-8 looks very much like a CETME barrel, Was a CETME barrel used for the FR-8?
PV
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The barrel of the FR-8 looks very much like a CETME barrel, Was a CETME barrel used for the FR-8?
No. CETME barrels are pressed into the action and retained by a pin. FR8s are standard threaded large ring mausers.
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Thanks. Is the Cetme barrel diameter big enough for threading for a mauser action?
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I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would think not, based on the reasoning that the designer would have made that section just large enough to withstand the pressure developed in the chamber (with a safety factor). A threaded barrel has to withstand the same pressure based on the minor diameter of the threaded section. But that's just speculation on my part, as I'm not a gunsmith and don't have any barrels around to check.
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I hate to totally disagree with you here on the pressures of the 8mm Mauser cartridge, however, I do.
Any cartridge can be loaded to any pressure if your dumb enough to do so. My point was, and still is, that the original military load for the 8x57 Mauser was (1888 on)for the .318 bore, a 215 grain projectile at 32000 PSI, in 1905 this load changed to a 196 grain projectile at 34000 PSI in a 323 bore, some 170 and 150 grain loads were issued to facilitate carbines in an effort to reduce recoil but were discontinued. The earlier rifles (pre 1905) were free bored to accommodate the new round and are stamped with an 'S' to designate the Spitzer projectile. Enough of the 8mm, all of the above can be found on line or in any decent reloading or cartridge book.
As to the 7.62 FR7/8 or Cetme made conversions, They have a relieved chamber in line with the semi and full auto military issue rifles of the day, H&K as well as the Cetme s/a's. Thus the FR7/8's were chambered the same, hence the comment that this will often split cartridge cases, especially UK, USA and Australian made cases, these have a closer manufacturers tolerance when compared to the Spanish and eastern European countries manufactured rounds.
We can bounce what magazines and past tests say around all day all day. But, the bottom line, from the original German Defence department's own annuls is that the standard post 1905, 8mm Mauser round generally had a 196 grain projectile with a 34000 PSI rated pressure and was the “standard' military issue for that caliber. And the Cetme (factory) 7.62 chambers were all relieved with some free-bore,to (in bolt rifles) reduce pressure and aid extraction, and in Semi and full auto to aid extraction in adverse conditions, heat, dirt etc. How do I know. I was an armourer responsible for proof and field testing ammunition and cartridges from countries around the world as training aides for the Australian Army for 35 years. please feel free to add your next (erroneous????) comments.
have a good day y'all
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Dear Mr. Colfi,
I don't mind at all that you completely disagree with me about the pressure of 8x57 IS cartridges. But let's try to be factual.
Firstly you mention 40000 psi and then 35000 psi. Secondly you mention that the standard cartridge had a 196 grain bullet,. The s.S bullet was indeed 198 grains, but also a lot of cartridges had still the S bullet of 154 grains. How I know that? I lived for about 10 years in the area where Operation Market Garden took place in 1944. There was still a lot ammo lying around. There were all kinds of bullets, s.S ,S, S m.E beobachtung, tracer etc. From your closing remarks I understand that you don't want to refer to publications because you know you are right. But allow me to just add the following link.
I can easily be convinced that I am wrong If you provide me with references for your statements.
Dear Mr. Dollarbill ,
Thanks for your comments.The reason that I wonder if Cetme barrels were used is that they look so much alike.The FR8 was used by the Guardia Civil a police organisation ,albeit with paramilitary aspects. Therefore I wondered why you can shoot rifle grenades with an FR8. Tear gas maybe? The Cetme barrels are also fluted.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will do some further load development using the suggestions made in this thread and let you know (even when unsuccesful!)
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The best result until now is with the 170 grains LBT , Hornady GC. Sized to .311 with a Lee die. Lee liquid Alox. A0 is a flake powder produced by Nobelsport. The burning rate is comparable to A #7, HS7,800X & N350 according to the nobelsport list.
Standard deviation (x) = 10 mm, Sy = 11 mm , The mean radius is 13 mm for the 15 shot group. Distance was 50 m.
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Looking good! Did you slug the throat and have Veral make a mold or did you one get of his molds off the shelf?
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I sent the throat slug to Veral Smith. The mold is a work of art! I had 4 .30 cal molds.I sold them because none of bullets fitted the oversize throat. I can really recommend the LBT molds.
PV
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I unloaded
a couple of vintage 8 mm mauser rounds.Both were
Marked 44 and Ss.One with a brass case,the other lacquered steel
Bothy bullets are Spitzer boattails yellow jackets,steel(rust) inside,very long bullets,with little lead,I think.
Weight of one was 160 grains and the other ,which had a black paint belt is around 172 gr.
They indeed used many types of different 8mm ammo,and I think most of it was used in machine guns.
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I have had excellent results w/cast in my M14s chambered in 7.62 NATO and will tryit in my FR8. M14 bbl is 1:12 twist.
R-P case, 150 gr NEI bullet sized 309, 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers. Cycles the action and no leading. 8 shots in 3/4 ” at 50 yds from the magazine. tried 29 and 30 gr also w/reasonable accuracy. The bullet looks like a 31141....shrunk.
Have not chronographed the load but suspect 1850 to 1900 fps.
Don.
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seabreeze, is that the NEI #48 mould?
Looks like the one, but mine come out about 150 gr from wheelweights.
Sorry about the delay getting back to u but work is wearing me out. But then there are a lot of folks that are unemployed, so no complaints.
Don
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Dollar Bill
U might gor to Beartooth Bullets and look up 30 cal bullets. Tried some of his 290 gr .432 in a 444 marlin w/outstanding results.
DB
seabreeze, is that the NEI #48 mould?
Looks like the one, but mine come out about 150 gr from wheelweights.
Sorry about the delay getting back to u but work is wearing me out. But then there are a lot of folks that are unemployed, so no complaints.
Don
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