Pope-Ideal 308403 bullet

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linoww posted this 01 February 2009

I have been shooting the Lyman /Pope design 308403 this last two weeks .I have been using my target sighted 1903 Springfield rifle as the “test vehicle” I have owned for about a month .So far it is showing itself to be a 2 MOA rifle for 10 shots @100 yards with GC bullets. The 308403 was designed by Harry Pope to be used in the 30-06 for offhand work up to 200 yards According to old literature I have read it was supposedly one of the best. It was to be used as cast and finger seated into your unsized freshly de/recapped and charged case. Shooters were instructed to use the one reprocessed case for all of your shooting for uniformity, The bullet is a “baseband” type with .314-.315 rear band (slightly tapered to the rear for easier seating)with the next two in front @ about .304 and the remainder to the nose being .301 diameter. It is very similar to the breech seated bullets once popular in the Schuetzen rifles of the earlier part of the century. EH Harrison in his NRA work didn't have high praise for the 308403 nor do my cast bullet shooting mentors Bill Anderson and Bob Mills. I think Joe Brennan had praise for it in a F.S. article a year or so ago. I was recently given a nice old “ventless” Ideal single cavity by Bob Mills to “torture myself” as he put it.

My first time out with it I loaded 20 of them in neck sized cases. I lubed with NRA mix with 7.0 of Bullseye and finger started them into the neck and let the chamber do the final seating work. The first group fired was 1” for 5 @ 100 yards. I then shot a 10 shot group into about 2-½”,but much of that was wind I felt. I shot the last 5 into 1”as well. I decided to make up a load at the range kit so I could shoot it as Pope intended it to be. Who was I to doubt the great Harry Pope anyway? The first time out with this setup I got no better than 2” 5 shot groups and 10 shot groups were about 3”.I noticed the tendency of the case neck to get looser as I fired it and figured this could be the problem. A follow-up range session showed similar results.

I went again out today with the same setup with a 310 Lyman setup so I could size the case necks. The poor grouping with the unsized one case setup continued with no inclination of any clustering. I then resized the necks of 10 cases and fired a group with them, still just finger seating the bullet lightly in the case mouth. I was rewarded with a 10 shot group into 2-¼”.I reloaded the same 10 and fired another 10 downrange. Group #2 was 2” even and I was getting excited. I loaded the last 10 and the first 5 started well then deteriorated into a 4-½” group!! Dumfounded I looked in the bore to see if I could see any leading .I saw a strange lumpy buildup that appeared to be my bullet lube. It ran from the end of the case to about 3” in front of the chamber and a tight patch did not remove it. I successfully “shot it out” with three GC bullets.

Now some info on the lube- The bullets were tumble lubed with a liquid Carnauba wax product used for treating the wood on musical instruments that I was given by another CBA member. ( I should know changing two variables is a no no)I had used it in the 22-250 at 2100 fps with very good luck and decided it was a good candidate for lubing these as cast bullets. What I “think” had happened was at the load of 7.0 of Bulleye wasn't blowing out as it seemed to be in the hotter 22-250 loads. Well I scrounged 5 more bullets lubed with NRA formula from my box and the last group went into 1.2”.I am satisfied, but curious how they may have gotten good grouping with the unsized cases “back in the day”, I sure couldn't .I also wonder why my Carnauba lube didn't perform at these lower velocity loads. I hope to do a final test middle of the week to see if I really discovered something. Does anyone else have experience with this design?

Sorry about the rambling post<G>

See attached picture of the targets.

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 01 February 2009

Geo,

I think Pope's design is fundamentally flawed. As you have noted, the base band is a less than slip fit into the fired case neck. There is no consistent bullet release or pressure build up. The breach seating like concept can only work with a sized neck that at least combines some consistency and a fixed point to the bullet base.

I have searched for years for Ideal's 311256, 311259, both Hudson designs, or 311276 or 311277 moulds. These had the front band sized to fit the throat and rear bands to fit into the neck. Here the bullet was jambed into the throat and held by the case mouth.

It would be great fun to compare the different designs in the same rifle.

Ric

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CB posted this 01 February 2009

RicinYakima wrote: Geo,

I think Pope's design is fundamentally flawed. As you have noted, the base band is a less than slip fit into the fired case neck. There is no consistent bullet release or pressure build up. The breach seating like concept can only work with a sized neck that at least combines some consistency and a fixed point to the bullet base.

Ric,

I don't figure that is a problem. I shoot many loads close to that way. I think as long as George is using Bullseye, the pressure build isn't critical. The pressure build that is there, comes from resistance of the large base diameter being forced into the bore. Just my idea from my side of the river of doing things close to this with good success.

George,

From my experiences shooting Carnuba wax lubes, is that a lube rich with Carnuba will work with high velocity loads during hot summer weather. My bore built up the same as yours did last winter in my Springfield at 1,600 fps, during one of our military matches with a high ratio Carnuba lube I made.

I find in my 40-70 with plain base CBs at 1,200fps, a soft alloy of 25:1 is more accurate than WW and that a soft lube such as Emmertt's works better at 1,200fps than a hard high velocity lube, especially in the cold weather.

The large base on that cb has to swage down into the bore, so an alloy containing antimony would make it brittle, a chance to flake and chip. At least that is what I've figured when I've tried to use Linotype alloy for .312"-.313” base CBs in my old Springfield. When I went to an easily malleable alloy like Lyman #2, they shot a lot better. You're having way too much fun, so keep us informed :D  ..............Dhttp://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=3476&forum_id=10&jump_to=20265#>an

 

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linoww posted this 01 February 2009

RicinYakima wrote: Geo,

I think Pope's design is fundamentally flawed. As you have noted, the base band is a less than slip fit into the fired case neck. There is no consistent bullet release or pressure build up.

Ric

If i can keep getting 5 shot groups in the 1"-1.25” range and 10 into 2” at 100 yards with necksized cases i dont think the basic design is flawed very much,only the loading info.Even with my two Hoch plainbase bullets and an LBT PB i dont usually get plainbase accuracy much better than that with peep sights.And for the record i am using 20-80 lino to ww mix.I need to try the softer stuff someday as many other experianced shooters tell me how they have better luck with it. I also have a nosepour copy of the 308403 but the baseband is only .309 as it was made for a modern Schuetzen rifle.It shot poorly in my 1903's,but now i may open up the band to .315 and give it another chance.I would like to try all those molds you mentioned as well Ric.When you find a couple of 311277's i'll buy one off you<G>I think the German “stop ring” concept is interesting.I just wonder how bullets with .327 scraper rings like the 311276 was supposed to have would not tend to shear/strip upon entering the rifling.Of those old Lyman designs it's amazing how well the simple 308241/150 does.There may be a reason it stayed in production longer than some others.

Thanks for the input guys.

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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j35nut posted this 02 February 2009

I have article by Ernest Coler ,Titled-- New Bullets I have met--date 8-15-22.

It goes into a little detail on the top five cast target bullets of the time. The Pope Taper bottom is one of the five, it doesn't say for sure if they used neck sized cases but it does say of the five the Pope is the only one seated with a tool and at this match it was shot out of a Springfield action with a Pope barrel 32” with a 14 twist, it goes onto say that the taper bottom was not just for ease of seating the bullet in the case but also to prevent fins from the lands from protruding past the rear of the bullet. 12.5 and 15 grs of Dupont # 80 chewed up the ten ring at a 100 yards indoors, it shows two 10 shot groups.

Let the torture continue---- :)

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linoww posted this 02 February 2009

Thanks for the info J35nut.What were the other 4 bullets?I have access to #80 ,maybe i should try some for nostalgia.The article sounds encourging,is there any way you could scan a copy and attach as aPDF to this thread for us to read?

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 02 February 2009

Dan & Geo,

Like both of you, I have had better results with NECK SIZED brass and seating the bullet into the throat. If the bullet is held tightly, it is similar to breach seating. BUT Pope meant this bullet to be seated in an unsized case.

My best plain based results have been with a Hoch 170 grain bullet. Like Geo's experience, if I neck size then flair the neck just a little, and seat the bullet, group size is half what it is for un-sized necks. Without having a consistent point for bullet location, groups open up. However, the fastest powder I have ever used is Unique.

That is why I have been looking for one of the other four moulds that have the enlarged band in the middle of the bullet, to see if that will give a consistent location for the bullet. It would be nice to reload with just a de-, re-capper.

Ric

p.s. Geo the use of '403 has driven lots of casters nuts, looking for Pope's reported results.

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j35nut posted this 02 February 2009

The five bullets are ---- drum roll please--------------------

The Squib a gas checked bullet similar to the 311413.

The Pope similar to the 308403

The Squib Miller similar to the 308403 except no taper base band and a stop ring on the top edge of the base band.

A Charles Gebhard experimental bullet similar to the 308329 except no gas check and a Wilk type check on the upper drive band.

Another Gebhard bullet similar to the 311365 but plain base.

The Squib and the two Gebhard bullets used cannelured shells.

No scanner , no camera, send me your mailing address in a PM and I will forward you a copy, with one provision which I will explain in a PM.

My copy came from Doug Elliot and I have sent copies of it to several different parties over the years.

good shooting

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KenK posted this 02 February 2009

RicinYakima wrote: That is why I have been looking for one of the other four moulds that have the enlarged band in the middle of the bullet, to see if that will give a consistent location for the bullet. It would be nice to reload with just a de-, re-capper.

That is somewhat like a plan I have had (that I don't doubt has been thought of many times before) which is to seat only the gas check heel into the case and trim the case neck back to give the proper amount of seating.  I think it would work in the 1903 with a relatively short bullet.

 

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KenK posted this 02 February 2009

George, how much of the bullet is in the case neck when you chamber it?  I assume it will stick in the bore if you open the bolt...

Maybe you could make a plugged case to seat the bullet and then cut a case back so that the neck was short of the base of the bullet.

I thought Pope hated the new-fangled bolt guns.  Maybe this bullet was his plan for revenge.

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linoww posted this 02 February 2009

KenK wrote: George, how much of the bullet is in the case neck when you chamber it?  I assume it will stick in the bore if you open the bolt... I start the bullet about 1/32 into the case,just enough to hold it.And yes it does stay in the bore when it is extracted.

Maybe you could make a plugged case to seat the bullet and then cut a case back so that the neck was short of the base of the bullet.

Plugged case is a neat idea,and it did go through my mind.I think am going to double dip the base band with Lee Liquid Alox and maybe that will fatten it up  to help it seat uniformly.I might have to scrub the throat  to remove the excess Alox occasionally.it is going to be in my next series of torture tests.I may then to be able to used the one fired case deal.it sure is relaxing to re-decap charge and shoot in that fashion.Makes for a nostalgic session at the bench.

I thought Pope hated the new-fangled bolt guns.  Maybe this bullet was his plan for revenge.

I used to shoot with Harry Pope III (Popes grandson) and if he was anything like that guy he is laughing like he** !

George Arthur Damron V

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 02 February 2009

That is somewhat like a plan I have had (that I don't doubt has been thought of many times before) which is to seat only the gas check heel into the case and trim the case neck back to give the proper amount of seating.  I think it would work in the 1903 with a relatively short bullet.

 

I shot a Martini .310 Cadet with the Lyman 321427 32/ 8MM GC bullet with shortened 32-20 cases trimmed to hold only the GC heel.it worked well considering i also had to run the whole loaded sha-bang back into a 32-20 Fl die to squeeze it down so it would chamber.I was able to shoot 3” @ 100 with the issue Cadet sights and that seemed alright.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 03 February 2009

j35nut  wrote: “The Squib and the two Gebhard bullets used cannelured shells"

I missed that reading that the first time.That could explain being able to use unsized cases.I need to figure out a way to do that!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 08 February 2009

ooopps

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 08 February 2009

I shot the Pope 308403 today in a Pattern-17 Winchester Mfg. Enfield 30-06 with 24 X scope. I started with 7.2 of BullsEye and after the first 4 shots in the 30deg weather I decided to bump up to 8.2 and see what happened. Last time I shot is was about 42deg and I was trying to adjust for conditions. I seemed to get rid of the vertical so I moved over and shot the upper 10 shot group seen in the target attached. The first 5 shots were about ¾” but I decided to throw in 5 more to see if it was holding up. I then processed the sane 10 cases with my Lyman “310” stuff and loaded 10 more with exactly the same load.(8,2 BE,Fed LP primer in neck sized and lightly expanded cases) Group #2 wasn't nearly as exiting as it went vertical on me(bottom group). Cant explain what happened as the only change was a bit more wind. I again loaded the same 10 and the next groups was like the first except one I lost to the wind about 3/4” right. I then repeated the process and again had a vertical group like the lower group shown .More to learn for sure, There are times when 4 of 5 consecutive shots cluster in a small ½” gob!

I also brought bullets from my “Pope#2” mold I just purchased. It is marked 311403 and casts quite a different bullet from my 308403. For starters the nose ride sections are .302+.Also the two just before the baseband are .305 and the kicker is the .315+ baseband that is not tapered to the rear, a supposed critical part of Popes design. I shot them “as cast” pan lubed. I stopped at about 7 shots as it was grouping over 3”at that point. It may work in a different gun, but not in this one or my 1903 I also tried them in today. I believe my first 308403 is the proper dimensions for the mold and the 311403 is a wrong modern “interpretation” of it. If you owned the mold made like the 311403 bad opinions could be made of the design, that wouldn't be entirely fair to Pope. I think his design seems to have possibilities in the heavy barreled target rifles of the day(Springfield or Martini free rifle type) accuracy could have been as good as many other rifles of that period up to 100 yards. I was recently sent a copy of a 1922 American Rifleman article that seems to confirm this. it's been a frustrating quest, but I am having fun!

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 08 February 2009

Nice shooting.

I would have gotten light headed for shots 8-10 on that first target.

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linoww posted this 23 February 2009

I went out again to torture myself with my Pope 308403 bullet. I used the same Winchester“Enfield” in 30-06 with a 24X scope. I brought along 50 neck sized, primed and very lightly expanded cases and my loading set up to charge the cases. I also brought along a breech seater made from a modified '06 case that consisted of a sliding rod through the case. In use you finger seat the bullet in the neck a bit and that shoves the rod out of the reamed and enlarged primer hole. When you close the bolt it is pushed by the bolt face and seats the bullet into the throat to adjusted rod length. Bullets were cast from W/W and lubed with NRA in a .314 die.

 

I started with the already sized cases and the measure set at 8.2 of Bullseye with the bullets finger seated into the neck. The first group was 1-5/8” with the high shot #1 being out of the cold barrel, the remainder clustering pretty well. The next group with the same cases started fantastic with the first 7 into a small “bughole” cluster, but the last three made a triangle around the core group to make it 1-3/8” for the 10.Group #3 was 2” even and had two low right shots that kept it from being a really good group. Group #4 only had 5 shots as there was a range ceasefire and was 1-3/8”.After the ceasefire I shot the 10 to the left of the 5 shot group and was a “hollow” 1-3/4” group. I then decided to try the deprime ”€œreprime one case deal and stopped at 7 shots as it was unsuccessful as before and ended up being about 2-1/2”.I shot the last 10 with reprocessed neck sized expanded cases and was pretty good except for the top shot that was the #1 shot out of the cooled barrel. Group size was 2-1/4” total with the 9 below into 1.2”

I almost forgot to mention my breach seater experience. I only fired four shots before I lost the pushrod! Even with that the four shots were about 3/4” wide by about 4” tall. Either it needed more powder being seated foreword a few” thou”, or my apparatus was too sloppy and was skewing the bullets as it pushed them in. I am having an machinist friend make me one that won't fall out and with some precision for a retest.

 

Well there it is, and I am not sure what to make of it good or bad. I will fire a few foulers when the barrel cools down for sure. This P-17 rifle shoots 1.5” for 10 with good GC loads, so it isn't far off with the Pope bullet as far as accuracy goes and is worth more torture.

 

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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runfiverun posted this 23 February 2009

george what does the inside of your neck sized cases measure and have yu tried partial length neck sizing and expanding to 312 or so yet? also charlie says to tell ya hi. think i might get him to cast some this summer. he did buy a pretty nice 45/70

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linoww posted this 23 February 2009

We are thinking on the same track.

I have tried sizing the necks less in other dies,but didn't have the exact size i wanted.I am having my Lyman .310 "muzzle resizer” lapped out(or bushings added if it doesn't cost too much) and an RCBS decapper assmbly put in and it will save me a step as well.I think the undersized neck with a slight bit of expansion does help push it into the throat,but i would like to try other options.It's like i am missing a small detail or just getting occasional good “teaser" groups from guns at the the outer stretch of their accuracy capability.I have been tempted to take up a friends offer of a new 1-14” twist tube and thread it on an 1903 heavy stocked rifle with closer chamber and try it with that way.I just don't know if i  want to sink money into a dedicated gun for just one bullet.

Tell Charlie his cousins daughter Shannon(my wife) says HI.He needs to stop shooting pistols so much and waste (did i say that) some time casting!!

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 01 March 2009

Chrono'd the Pope 308403 with 7.5 of new Bullseye,necksized cases bullet fingerseated and bolt closing doing final seat.Primer was Federal std Lg pistol.

All are 10 shot strings.

1114 avg. 5.8 SD

1119 avg. 8.0 SD

1115 avg. 6.1 SD

1122 avg. 4.6 SD

I only wish the grouping was as uniform! Best 10 were 1-3/8” worst was 2-1/4” Within all groups a “core” of 7-8 into 3/4 or less generally forms.I could have stopped at 5 shots on two of the groups and had 3/4” or less,but i am trying for 10 as its the number of shots i will need for record at the Military score matches.Right now its not good enough to compete with.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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DAMRON G posted this 09 November 2010

Bump to top for adrians to read regarding his ideal mold thread.

George

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adrians posted this 10 November 2010

got it george thanks man ,will print out and read it at hard labor tommorrow(w$#k,the other 4 letter word,)have a good night .adrians

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