I'm a new member of CBA and am planning a new rifle for cast bullet competition.Is there anyone out there that has experience with this caliber such as rifles-bullets-powders-loads and etc. Any and all information would be appreciated.
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
I have always considered the Maximum a real sleeper cartridge for BPCR. Good cast bullet round. How easy is brass to find?
Cheers from New Zealand
Attached Files
The brass is available from Starline, so pretty easy to come by. The new Winchester round, the .350 Legend may have the same potential.
https://winchester.com/350-Legend
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
Attached Files
my friend john goodrich from so. minnesota has been playing with the 357 max for several years, in custom chamberings ... he doesn't post much but i think he reads this forum sometimes. maybe he will throw in with some thoughts.
i talk to him often, i will see if he will contribute a bit. i know he has me thinking about a 357 max for myself. i have a new varmint weight barrel blank in 35, and i think grizzly bears are seldom seen here in so. iowa ... red bull cans are plentiful though ...
ken
Attached Files
I have a cadet, one of those that was imported and converted to .357 mag, I opened it to Max. Shoot a 190gr cast, PP or GC, and love it, consistently inside 1" I use 1680 powder but my notes are out in the shop. Did take a deer with it last year, one shot, one kill. GW
Attached Files
Just a note on the 350 Legend. It has some quirks. They are: Non-standard case head (it is not a blown out 223), non standard bore diameter (smaller than 358) and head spaces on the case mouth. All of these are manageable but seemingly unnecessary inconveniences.
Jim
Attached Files
The .357 Maximum can be a potentially great cast bullet cartridge. The availability of molds ranging from 180 to 250 grains in both gascheck and plain-base bullets, reasonable recoil, rimmed for headspace, larger bullet to touch the next ring, there are advantages. It could even work for breech-seating.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
Attached Files
What action are you going to build on?
I have a Winchester LW that I rechambered to Max from Mag, in 1992. It has a 28" barrel.
I mostly shoot it breech seated but, I have some HV fixed data, also.
Shooting breech seated, 14 gr of #9 and 14 gr of 4227, give me 1" groups at 100 yards. The bullet I used was a 35875, casting a 208 gr bullet, in 20/1. The 14 gr load of #9 was 1437 fps. I didn't chrono the 4227 but, the accuracy was the same.
Frank
Attached Files
Hello Frank,
I haven't decided on what action I will use. I have some bolt actions and some single shot actions that have been laying around here waiting on something to do. And I may rebarrel an existing rifle and not have to go through the total rifle build again. If I go the bolt action I think I'll build a sleeved action with a aluminum bedding bloc.k I'm not close to picking a caliber yet, I'm still thinking and hope to hear some good stuff from experienced CBA shooters.
Thanks for the Info.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
Mashburn
If you really haven't a firm choice for caliber, the 30 BR pretty much rules in the benchrest rifles. If you would like to not follow the herd a few guys are beginning to experiment with the 6 BR.
Jim
Attached Files
You can build either a falling block type action or a bolt action and shoot in the PB class. The Max will deliver some serious horse power in a strong rifle. The LW, isn't that strong but, in my HV loads, I was able to get 1832 fps with the 358315 (also 208 gr) and 2342 fps with a H&G 150 gr GC bullet, both fixed loads with #9 powder. I'm sure you can break 1900 fps, with that 358315 using a little slower powder.
I think if I could only have one cartridge, it would be the Max. It will do both heavy game and target work in a strong action.
I also have a DW 357 Max 
Frank
Attached Files
Frank
What is the 10,000 ft description of the mods required to the bolt face for a 357 Max. I have an extra Remington action - standard bolt face.
Jim
Attached Files
I'm not sure what your asking but, a 308 size bolt face will be to large for the Max's .438 rim Diameter.
You can open a 223 bolt face or if you pay close attention to case length, you can make them out of 223's and head space on the case mouth. You might have to neck turn also, with the 223 case.
If you use the 223 case, you can also make a Super Max and trim them to 1.705, .10 over the Max's 1.605
Frank
Attached Files
Jim,
Like the man said a .223 case could be used and head space on the casemouth Probably the most sensible cure.. As far as re-working the bolt face I don't see any way possible to make it work by a simple method. The main reason is that the face of the bolt face is too deep to hold the case head rim against the back of the barrel unless you decrease the depth of the rim on the front of the bolt face and then set the barrel back.. Then the big problem is; there is no longer any steel left to hold the weird Remington extractor in place. The only other modification would be to take an extractor from something like a savage AXIS and machine the remiington bolt head to take something like the savage extractor.I haven't ever sat down and thought about such a conversion. I'm sure there are some people out there that has done things like this, however the chamber pressure on your wallet would get awful high.I have a friend who sent his 700 off somewhere and they put a savage bolt head on the Remington bolt.He did this for some weird little cartridge. I don't know what the cost was.Bolt guns with claw extractors can be reworked for about anything.The .223 has a deeper bolt face that the larger 700's have.
This would make a good discussion topic for all the gunsmiths out there. Why do we insist on doing such things. Years ago, I put a O3 Springfield bolt into a 6.5 Jap rifle reciever. Why? Because I heard that it could be done.The action is still laying on the shelf for years waiting on something to do. It made a neat looking action, but again, WHY. The person that told me that he had heard it could be done was P. O. Ackley's son-in-law.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
frank... the bolt face for a 308 is about 0.475 ... the 357 max rim is only about 0.440 ... the 308 min-extractor on a remmy won't reach a 357 max rim . make that * i think *, only 0.018 short ...
i wonder if a ( mauser, old win 70, 54, ruger 77 ... or a sako/m16 type ) extractor would work . or at least be easier to crutch up .
of course the Ruger1,2,3 ..... are always fun ... extractors are about $7 ...
ken
Attached Files
mashburn ... speaking of the ruger1 .... can you just lathe-cut the seat for the extractor.... all the way around the breech of the barrel ?? ... i can't think of a reason why not ... or will the extractor flop around ?
just some 3am thinking ... i have a r3 in 45-70 that i was thinking would be just as much fun in 357 max, and easy to change back.
ken
hey, i also am thinking you can chamber a 357 max with just a chucking reamer ... no $270 bill and 6 weeks wait ... whatcha think ??
Attached Files
My thought was that a Sako extractor could work. In the past we converted 308 bolt faces to 223. Mill a new ring to enclose the case head and install a sako extractor, I have 2 of these I have shot for years.
I am sure a 35 Remington or 358 Winchester would make more sense but as Mashburn said, it is no fun to only do what makes the most sense. Sometimes you just have to do it even if it isn't logical. Actually I have a 358 Win barrel laying around here someplace but I can not find it.
Jim
Attached Files
There are many extractor kits out there to convert the Remington extractor, to a Sako type. I think PTG sells one.
There is not much difference between the rim diameter of the Max and the PPC case so, a PPC bolt should work.
You can save money on a reamer, by ordering a neck and throater and have them put a little taper in the neck area. Make sure you specify the neck area, be at least 1.7 long. I had PTG, do that for a chambering reamer, to make a 28 (7mm) caliber on the 25/20SS case. I cut the rim with a boring bar but, you wouldn't have to do that for a bolt rifle.
Frank
Attached Files
Jim,
You have the same problem. The distance between the face of the bolt and the back of the barrel would be too far a distance for the bolt to headspace the front of the cartridge rim against the back of the barrel. Remember rimless cases have the head of the cartridge sticking out of the chamber. Rimmed cases have the front of the rim seated against the back of the camber or even recessed in most cases. That creates a distance to over come. You would have to build up the front of the bolt if you did something like this with a rimmed case. I don't want to put that much heat on a heat treated bolt head. In changing the front of the bolt for a smaller cartridge like a mauser or etc. I have soft soldered the right size washer on the bolt face and machined the washer out to fit the case head and remove what was needed to keep the control feed functioning .Soft solder heat shouldn't bother the temper of the bolt face. But again it could be done my setting the barrel back in the receiver to take up this headspace problem. Claw type actions don't present a very big problem to convert to rimmed in most cases. Hey, it's beginning to sound like the extracter problem is easy compared to the rest of this project. Again, why do we think of this kind of stuff. OH, I know. It's fun.
You mentioned have a .358 barrel.. By any chance, did it come off a model 88 Winchester. I would like to have one I gotta get off here, when I get started talking gun projects I can't shut up. Especially after I've had a pain pill for my old aching carcus.
GOSH, it sure is fun talking shop with you guys. When you think about it we are the few that know how to do things in the modern world. In todays world if you can saw out plywood silhouttes and paint them, you are considered to be a craftsman. I raised my boys to do the same and am starting some of my grand kids.
Mashburn.
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
Mashburn
It took me awhile to understand what Frank and you were saying but now I have a grip - duh.
My 358 barrel is threaded for a Remington action. I think it may be like big foot though. I can not find it.
I took it off in the first place because we never could get it to feed right and I wanted the rifle for deer hunting. I currently have accumulated 4 - 243s so I can spare at least one to build a 35 caliber. Darn you, you got me thinking about it all over again .
I have never owned a 35 Remington. It just might be time.
The weather looks like we may be at least a month away from decent conditions at the range. That means it is a good time to start a project.
Jim
Attached Files
People like us are easy to get excited. Some times I will stay up all night and work or just research stuff. I can personally vouch for the .35 Remington as a fine woods rifle. For some reason the 35's ballistics don't support what a deer killer it is, it is a deer killing machine. I have owned 3 and haven't hunted with one in several years but they get the job done .I have a very unusual deer rifle. I started out building a 38-55 single shot rifle. But I should point out that I had chronic Lyme disease at the time and didn't know it yet. I did a lot of crazy things like I couldn't write my last name. I could write my first name fine, but not my last. I did a lot of other crazy things. Late one night I had the barrel chambered within a few thousandths. I decided to wait till the next day when I was fresh to finish it. The next day I got my reamer out of the tube. I was all set up and stuck the reamer in the chamber and it would not go all the way in the chamber. Like I said I had been doing some strange stuff and I started the lathe. The first time I removed the reamer to clean it, I saw it was marked 30-30 Improved. The only thing I could do was to go on. I thought I had ruined the barrel. I test fired it and It had made the neatest 38-55 improved cartridge you could ask for. I call it 38-55 Lyme. My friend calls it .375 Cogburn. I am getting close to 2300 fps with no sighs of pressure with a 220 grain bullet. The gun shoots a little over 1/2 inch groups. Of course I had to make dies for it. I've fallen in love with it and it's all I want to hunt with. Of all the high dollar rifles I own I never deer hunt with them anymore. It weighs about 6 pounds. What I though was a Lyme goof up turned out wonderful
How's that for a goof up.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
Regarding the bolt face issue.......
Remington's bolt is advertised to be one that encloses the cartridge head for "safety". It must by necessity leave part of the cartridge head, unsupported by the barrel.
ALL modern cartridges have a solid head of at least .200 and most are no longer than .220. All boxer type primers for both L & S are about .175 long so, you have to have that .200 to hold them and bottom out. Most will bottom at least .005 below the surface.
Now, back to the Max. The 357 Maximum was designed, right from the start, to be a 50 K CUP cartridge! It will hold at least as much, if not more pressure than the 223 family of cases.
I don't do it in my LW but, I can shoot loads in my DW revolver that completely flatten the primers. The case is supported better in the revolver but, the chamber walls are MUCH thinner than a rifle.
Remember, in a a single shot, you have a extractor cut that usually has to be about .150 deep, leaving that area, unsupported. It's the weakest point of a SS barrel and if one fails, that is where it will start.
I've only fitted a few bolt action barrels but, as a matter of doing those, I thread them to within .002 - .010 of the bolt face, just because that is the way I think it should be done. I single load so, I have no issues with ramps to feed from magazines BUT, I built a Mauser with a 8.15 x 46R barrel and had to have a push feed. The bolt face was no issue, I used 225 Win cases. To get it to push feed over the rim, I reduced the extractor width to (from memory) about .15 wide. It works well.
Frank
Attached Files
All rimless cases have the head exposed .Rimmed cases are not designed to be that way because like you said the webb to walls area gets thin in a hurry. What we' been saying is there is too much room between the bolt face and the back of the chamber as it exists. you would have close to a eighth inch of headspace like that. Most of the rifles I have built are single shot or lever guns. I am quite aware not to get the extractor notch past the webb on a rimmed case. On the Remington you could set the barrel back as far as possible and you would still have excess head space because the bolt face ring is much deeper that the rim of the case ;therefore too much headspace. That is what I was saying the bolt face would have to be built up and the barrel set back. On my bolt guns that I build for target or varmit rifles while understruction I set the barrel back to where it touches the bolt face and then I hand lap it enough so that It won't expand when it gets hot during firing and lock the bolt up. To make the bolt work with rimmed cartridges the rim on the bolt face hase to be mostly milled off-barrel set back. Then there is no place for the Remington extractor to seat and that was the problem we were trying to solve in the first place .Again why do we think of such when there are plenty of rifles around that require this. I know: a spring broke or stretched in our brains years ago, maybe at birth. I bet that if were not experimenters doing our own work and had to pay someone else, our brain spring might begin working. AIN'T THIS FUN
Sounds like you have some nice firearms and you use them instead of having them as gun safe queens.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
well, there is a .... variation/cross .... way to approach extracting a rimmed catridge ...
just have the chambered catridge set on a little " volcano " ... about a 30 degree per side pip ... this establishes the headspace for consistency, and yet allows the extractor when closing the bolt to glide over the rim and just rest on the side of the volcano until the bolt is pulled back .. the springed extractor then grabs the case with it's fish-hook and extracts ... a variation might even work in the recessed face of the remmy 700.
i set up my ruger 22 hornet that way when i set back and rechambered a barrel i got from RD here a while back. the little volcano gives at least some support all the way around a rimmed case base, and i leave a small flat on top of the volcano, you don't need full depth to extract.
[ in the case of the hornet, there is only 0.025 maximum rim depth, so when i decided to load some hot loads i dremeled another 0.005 depth to avoid stuck cases ... never have had one that didn't extract, even without the added grip. the 357 max would have ~0.030 maximum grip. ]
this method is for my own guns, and not for serious business . i have never had a failure to extract or blow-up with this method . yet . and never tried it on the funny little remington ring extractors, just on pivoting hook extractors that can ride the side of the volcano.
***************
oh, when i bot my borden action in 308 case head , jim assured me it would also extract ppc cases. so i chambered up a match 6ppc and sure enough it did extract.. it has a sako extractor .... btw i never fired that barrel even once ... mashburn isn't the only one that does funny things in his shop ... ( g ) ...
wonder if a 6ppc would shoot lead castings?? 14 twist ... like jim scearcy, i am pretty sure i still have that barrel somewhere ...
ken
Attached Files
All rimless cases have the head exposed .Rimmed cases are not designed to be that way because like you said the webb to walls area gets thin in a hurry.
The web will be approx the same, based on the pressure requirement of the cartridge. The rim is only there for extraction and head space.
What we' been saying is there is too much room between the bolt face and the back of the chamber as it exists. you would have close to a eighth inch of headspace like that.
There are two ways of dealing with that, either use the end of the chamber to head space or, cut the bolt face back to .045/.050 deep and use a claw extractor. Then relieve or notch the back of the barrel for extractor clearance. The bolt will still work for rimless case, when modified that way.
Most of the rifles I have built are single shot or lever guns. I am quite aware not to get the extractor notch past the webb on a rimmed case. On the Remington you could set the barrel back as far as possible and you would still have excess head space because the bolt face ring is much deeper that the rim of the case ;therefore too much headspace. That is what I was saying the bolt face would have to be built up and the barrel set back. On my bolt guns that I build for target or varmit rifles while understruction I set the barrel back to where it touches the bolt face and then I hand lap it enough so that It won't expand when it gets hot during firing and lock the bolt up. To make the bolt work with rimmed cartridges the rim on the bolt face hase to be mostly milled off-barrel set back. Then there is no place for the Remington extractor to seat ( you couldn't use a Rem extractor in this situation, it has to be a claw) and that was the problem we were trying to solve in the first place .Again why do we think of such when there are plenty of rifles around that require this. I know: a spring broke or stretched in our brains years ago, maybe at birth. I bet that if were not experimenters doing our own work and had to pay someone else, our brain spring might begin working. AIN'T THIS FUN.
Yes, it is always rewarding to do things your own way. I get as much out of this sport building my rifles to my specs, as I do in shooting them.
Sounds like you have some nice firearms and you use them instead of having them as gun safe queens.
I'm a ASSRA, ISSA and CBA, competitive shooter. Even in the late 80's, I competed in CBA with a single shot rifle and have never competed with a bolt action. What safe queens I have, are bolt, LA (only 2) rifles and pistols. I do love the Rem 600 series, including my XP100. My only real, bolt weakness
Great conversation!
Frank
Mashburn
Attached Files
FWIW,
Back in my Handgun Silhouette days, I rebarreled a number of XP-100s (221s) to 308 head
in 7mm x 225 win, 30 SCBS , 7-08,etc.
My extractor conversion that worked well was installing an M-16 extractor
beltfed/arnie
Attached Files
The .357 max is a sweetheart of a round! Currently, I only have a 14" TC contender that I inherited from a dear lost cousin who bought it back when Illinois first opened a handgun deer season, but he never got the chance to use it. I have put it to good use on deer and lots of paper and steel. I use 2400 for medium loads in it and Reloder 7 for max loads. My gun shoots the Lee 250 RF and the Lyman 358430 200 grain very well. Years ago I also fed it 180 Hornady XTP's before I saw the light and got hooked on casting. It'll even shoot .38 specials with pretty respectable accuracy when the loose nut on the trigger is focused. I am currently working on a few barrels for my H&R Handi rifle, and one will be .357 max. Just finished one in .32 s&w long, and holy cow, I'm having fun!
Attached Files
I haven't had a ruger No. 1 around here in years. I can't remember anything about what the extraction system looks like. Sorry I can't be of any help .As far as a chucking reamer to chamber a barrel the only thing I can say is it would make a hole. I can't answer with any knowledgeable info. If you ever find that elusive barrel in .358 Win. I would like to deal you out of it..
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
Hello.
After first reading your email on my computer you got me to me to thinking. I spent a lot of happy years shooting turtles and deer hunting with a Contender. Mine hasn't been shot in years. I never did shoot cast bullets in mine but I have some cast bullet loads ready to try. The main thing you stirred up was your mention of making barrels for your handi-rifle. Are you building them from blanks and making your own locking lugs and etc. or are you re-chambering an existing caliber? The one I made I cut the barrel of just in front of the bottom locking mechanism and bored it out and threaded it to make a receiver ring and them turned a shank on the new barrel and threaded it real snug-turned it to contour-and faced the breech end off. It made a very accurate barrel in 38-55 Imp caliber. I would like to hear and I bet a lot of people would also about your work.The .32 S&W long really got my attention. I've been wanting to build one. Please post us some info.
David Cogburn-Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
I'm building my barrels in what could be described as doing it the hard way. I didn't have any factory barrels that I wanted to sacrifice, so I'm making monoblocks from solid stock. I have a lot of 2" round 4340 ht 28-32 rc material that I bought dirt cheap. So I start with a piece of that and mill it to a rectangle and then proceed to worry it into a monoblock with a bored and threaded hole for the barrel. Since this is a one piece affair, the extractor has to be fitted into a round hole under the barrel in the same location the factory unit would be. The extractor is made from W1 drill rod bent at a right angle with the hook end filed flat to fit. It's a lot of work, and if I owned a tig welder I would probably just make these from 4130 tubing and square stock. However, this material would just be gathering dust, and it beats the heck out of watching tv. My wife insists that I take photos of the progression from start to finish, and I may just do that.
Attached Files
I would love to see pictures and I imagine there are a lot of people out there that would like to see them also. It's nice to see people that actually make things from scratch and not buy a bunch of high dollar parts and stick them together. Please post more of your work and keep us informed.
Thanks,
David Cogburn
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
Attached Files
wimilkman
24
pat i.
18
Tom Acheson
13
MarkinEllensburg
9
Aaron
9
Ed Harris
8
mashburn
6
porthos
5
MP1886
4
linoww
3
