45-70 casting question

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gunauthor posted this 27 December 2018

I shoot a NEF 45-70 rifle (mainly at paper, love making big holes) and would like some suggestions on lead alloy to use.  I got a Lee 458 diameter 405 grain hollow base mold for Christmas and I'd like to begin casting soon.  Is pure lead an option or should I go with linotype or COWW?  Also can anyone suggest a very accurate (mild is good) powder charge?  My thanks in advance for any and all help.  

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beagle6 posted this 27 December 2018

I've had good luck with that bullet, cast 30 to 1, and 12 grains Unique in my Trapdoor. Good luck.

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onondaga posted this 27 December 2018

Lee's HB is an excellent bullet for 45-70 but designed for low pressure that works for target matches. The best recommendation is to choose an alloy that matches your load level as detailed in Lee's book or in the instructions for Lee's Hardness testing kit available free online. The kit instructions show the alloy strength related to the ballistic pressure of loads and give a range in psi from start to max for the alloy strength. That scheme is perfect for your HB bullet. Example: BHN15 #2 alloy: 21,134 psi is the ultimate strength of the alloy before permanent deformation and the working load range begins at a maximum of 10% lower at 19,021 psi load pressure and goes DOWN from there - not up.. So a MAXIMUM pressure for your bullet in #2 alloy is 19,021 psi.

This is not new news, just basics. if you want to shoot higher pressure loads than 19,021 psi use a stronger alloy and look up it's range on the chart. The inverse is also valid.

The most spectacular advantage of the Lee HB bullet is that when you select a load level to match the alloy as Lee recommends. THE BULLET DIAMETER BECOMES LESS IMPORTANT because it works to fit itself to your rifle in the recommended load range. That translates to winner winner chicken dinner in the accuracy department.

A well matched 45-70 load for your 405 gr HB bullet in #2 alloy for example, listed by Lee is a mildly compressed load of A-XMR3100, 60 grains with a pressure of 18,200 psi and a velocity of 1422 fps. Likely to be a match winner if you can shoot well.

Load that bullet as cast in #2 alloy and tumble lubed with Lee LLA or 45:45:10. Get the right stuff and powder to stay in the load range of your powder and alloy and it will be easy peezie, dink around and you will be lost and wandering for years. The Lee 405 HB is WONDERFUL in it's load range! Don't try to make it something else.

H4895 is tailor-able to load ranges very well also and safely reducible for the 405 HB in 45-70, the math is doable and researched with examples by Lee in his pressure section of Modern Reloading second edition. CUP and psi are NOT the same, Lee formulas are based on psi and Lee's book has the most reference to pressures in psi available.

Certified #2 alloy is on sale at Rotometals, 5 lbs / $16.99 they also have all the other popular alloys and are certified for content and BHN. One pound equals 7,000 grains so 5 lbs of #2 alloy yields 86- 405 gr bullets for $16.99. Get the right stuff:

https://www.rotometals.com/lyman-2-bullet-metal-5-pounds-90-lead-5-tin-5-antimony/

Volume discount are available and orders over $100 ship Free.

I cast 350s 385s and 405s in #2 for 45 Cal. at 725 F and they fill out perfectly if I drop 3-4 times a minute. I have outboard digital heat control for my Lee 4-20 bottom pour.

Gary

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tlkeizer posted this 27 December 2018

Greetings,

FWIW IMHO, Onandaga is right on the money with the Lee HB 405 grain bullet.  If it will attach, I will put a photo with this.  I shoot both pure lead and range scrap, and haven't seen a difference in groups that I could pinpoint, but with light loads softer is better.  My bullets tested around 9 and 12 for hardness when Onondaga tested a couple for me.  Also, when you get your mold from Lee, if you get fins on casting, send it back for tune-up with a couple bad bullets.  I did, they corrected and fine tuned the mold at no cost, and it now casts beautifully.  Wonderful bullet.

Now, I shoot original trapdoors with black powder only.  A light load is 55 grains FFG, bullet is lubed with SPG.  The bullet seated will rest atop the BP, very minimal compression.  For modern powders, others will have to list their loads as above.  For a heavier load I load 70 grains BP with either 500 grain or 405 grain bullets, and need to compress the BP.  To do so, my neck expander compresses the powder the needed amount when I expand the case neck; sometimes I load the last 5 grains atop the compressed powder.  For consistency, I have shot 5-10 shot groups with Sd under 5 and ES under 10, my best one day was a 5-shot group Sd 2 with ES 5.  So, these loads do their part if I do mine.  Of course, the cleanup after the range takes time as I use BP.  

The group below is a 405 HB LEE bullet, shot at 100 yards, iron sights, SPG lube, 55 grains Goex FFG, Springfield Trapdoor.  I called the low right shot, and measured the groups with and without the called outlier.  I don't always shoot this good, but have pulled off more than one group to challenge it.  Measurements are in inches.  This shows what the LEE bullet is capable of, and to support Onondagas comment on the bullet, it will form fit the barrel (my words, not his), my mold casts 0.005 out of round, and I pan lube so do not lubrisize; lube-em, load-em, un-load-em down the barrel.

Have fun.

TK

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Bud Hyett posted this 27 December 2018

 The thread seems to be drifting into a report on Trapdoor loads while the original rifle was the modern NEF Handi-Rifle. The load with 12.0 grains of Unique is one I have used in several different modern .45-70 rifles with great success and my shoulder loving the load. The bullets were first the Lee hollow-base and then the RCBS 45-300-FN without a gascheck. The alloy was a variety from range scrap to 94/4/2 Pb/SB/SN depending on what was in the pot at the time. 

With 9.0 grains Unique, you can feel the reaction of a Marlin 1895 as it tries to twist off the bullet passing down the barrel. Unique and a 30 grain to 400 grain bullet, sized to the chamber throat, will provide hours of plinking fun. If I were still in the Midwest, I'd open a lead mine at the old range house location and recover the many .45-70 bullets embedded there. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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RicinYakima posted this 27 December 2018

My two favorite loads are 12 grains of Unique and 24 grains of A2400. The 2400 load is supersonic and may kick too much in the NEF. If you only want short range, less than 100 yards, 300 grains work fine. But at 100 the 400/405 grainers are better for accuracy. I like the Lee HB bullet, but I had a real hard time getting good bases, but when I did, it was my best target bullet.

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M3 Mitch posted this 27 December 2018

Has anyone tried the old "collar button" type bullet?  Lyman has this in production right now and it's available from Midway:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010249241/lyman-2-cavity-bullet-mold-457130-45-70-government-458-459-diameter-145-grain-collar-button-round-nose 

I guess the custom makers can make it up on request, if you have say an old Springfield with an oversize bore. 

But how does it shoot, is it any good beyond 25 or 50 yards?

Plinking with a 45-70 just plain uses up a lot of lead. 

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RicinYakima posted this 27 December 2018

It was designed to shoot at 50 feet indoors gallery range. I've tried it in the past, and for me, it was not a good as an oversized round ball in the trapdoor. Others say they can get 3 inches at 50 yards, but it never shot that well for me.

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Bud Hyett posted this 27 December 2018

This was thirty years ago. A friend had passed away and his widow wanted two of us to sell his collection of molds and assorted reloading equipment. Five hundred, or so, of these were given me. No mold was found, just the bullets.

The bullets were soft, you could scratch the nose with a thumbnail. The grease groove must have been for black powder as filling it produced clouds of lube smoke. The final solution was to dab a slight mount of lube on each bullet by finger. 

The range of accuracy was at best 25 yards. I read these were to be used inside an armory for practice and I believe that is the limit of the the possible accurate range. Beyond fifty yards, they wandered off on a line of their own.

Velocity is limited, the bullet is fragile. The base is thin, thus you can bend the base with too much pressure and velocity. We recovered bullets to see what had happened to the bases and they were bent. If I remember correctly, 900 fps is the maximum.    

Personally, I would invest in the RCBS 45-325-FNU mold and a shovel to dig the bullets out of the backstop and reclaim the lead. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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M3 Mitch posted this 28 December 2018

Thanks guys, you may have saved me some frustration - although - did you look at the current design?  It looks different from the old one with the huge lube groove.  There are 2 positive reviews from about a year ago.

I have a 293 grain 4-cavity Lyman mold, bought when they had a "clearing out the attic" sale decades ago, this might remain my "go to" light-ish 45-70 bullet.

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RicinYakima posted this 28 December 2018

If that is their old .45/90 bullet, it is a much better choice. I have it in both Ideal and Winchester moulds and like it very well for plinking and can rolling.

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Lee posted this 28 December 2018

A bit off the subject. For those with 457130 molds and not having much luck with it in 45-70.  I found a place for this bullet cast of WW, powder coated, sized to .452", loaded in 45 ACP, and fired in my Ruger New Model Blackhawk. Works well easy on the lead supply and recoil.  Works in 1911 if it will feed.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 December 2018

for about a year i have been using the Lee Old Army ( for ruger cap gun ) mold , about 230 grain round nose ... plain base ......  in my 45-70, for VERY mild recoil and plinking up to 50 yards ... this isn't the ultimate accuracy load but it is a bunch of fun, and kids and wimmin critters can hit pop cans at 50    make that 30.... yards without bruises ... and a lb of lead makes 30 bullets !! ...

and 12 gr. unique, which burns clean, to my surprise with this stubby nearly-square bullet ...., so possibly could use even less with a heavier 300-405 bullet ...  i use the lee factory crimp,  probably helps ignition, i know it helps consistent seating in my push-in ruger3 .

funny to think of a 230 grain bullet as a light-weight .... ( g ) ...

ken 

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OU812 posted this 28 December 2018

I have all ways thought the 458 Winchester magnum would be an excellent cartridge for bpcr compettition. The gentle 1/2 degree per side taper of throat would work perfect with a large matching taper bumped 45 caliber bullet. Hane you ever seen taper bumped 500 grain bullet.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 28 December 2018

I have all ways thought the 458 Winchester magnum would be an excellent cartridge for bpcr compettition. The gentle 1/2 degree per side taper of throat would work perfect with a large matching taper bumped 45 caliber bullet. Hane you ever seen taper bumped 500 grain bullet.
I started single-shot competition with my Ruger #1 in .458 WM.  Did OK, great throat for cast bullets.  Of course I was shooting HEAVY loads and the folks 3 benches down were well aware of my presence.

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frnkeore posted this 28 December 2018

Don't forget to try 10.0 gr of Unique. It was my best accuracy in my 45/70, with a 430 gr bullet (16 to the lb ).

For short range, I would go with a re-sized .490 ball and the 10.0 gr load, too.

Another option would be to open the base band on a 452374 (45 ACP round nose) and load just the base band in the case.

Frank

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rmrix posted this 28 December 2018

I have all ways thought the 458 Winchester magnum would be an excellent cartridge for bpcr compettition. The gentle 1/2 degree per side taper of throat would work perfect with a large matching taper bumped 45 caliber bullet. Hane you ever seen taper bumped 500 grain bullet.
It, the 458 Winchester magnum is near the belted clone of the 45-2-4/10" or what we often call the 45-90 Winchester.
However, the 14 twist of the 458 is not ideal for BPTR.

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GP Idaho posted this 29 December 2018

As the collar button bullet was mentioned earlier in the thread I'll add my thoughts on that bullet. I recently added the 460-186-CB-AP4 mould from  NOE to my collection. I had it to the range just yesterday for the first time.  While I would agree that it isn't a match winning target bullet, it's a very FUN bullet fired from a 45-70. Perfectly capable of hitting a beverage can most every shot. Using light charges of about any fast powder makes for great plinking from usually hard kicking round from a 45-70 Handi rifle. Gp

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onondaga posted this 29 December 2018

 "The thread seems to be drifting into a report on Trapdoor loads while the original rifle was the modern NEF Handi-Rifle."

BudHyett, the Lee HB 405 is designed for trapdoor level loads and the OP gunauthor is searching for , "can anyone suggest a very accurate (mild is good) powder charge? ". I gave him what he asked for to take the best accuracy advantage of the bullet mold he has to work with.

It is actually common to setup MS spreadsheet with the Lee formula to match load level to alloy strength and optimize for accuracy if you want to do it yourself. He chose the right bullet for low load level accuracy in 45-70. Most Trapdoor level loads will be fine with his bullet but the faster pistol powders definitely don't have the relatively flat pressure curves that work best with cast bullets in 45-70 for accuracy.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 30 December 2018

Gunauthor,

Hodgdon recommends their H4895 in both Trapdoor and Lever rifle load levels for 400-405 gr cast bullets, so the Hodgdon reduced load guidelines for H4895 is valid. H4895 can be safely loaded down to 1/2 available case volume in 45-70 for 100 pound child friendly recoil loads. Filler is NOT necessary, but will lower velocity deviation and improve accuracy. I recommend you try BPI Original filler for compressed reduced loads of H4895 and you will have no partially burned powder kernels down your bore. After placing your reduced charge in the case, fill the case to 1/8" of case mouth rim with BPI Original and seat/crimp the bullet. Get BPI Original from the maker:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/

About 60-75% case full of H4895 plus BPI is a great shooting low level load for your Lee 405 HB bullet but you can load higher. 48 gr H4895 is Trapdoor MAXIMUM and 55 gr H4895 is the modern Lever rifle MAXIMUM. Verify at:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

A good advantage of H4895 is that it is universally easy to find because of it's broad application and the pressure curve is great for cast bullets.

Gary

 

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gunauthor posted this 31 December 2018

Thanks to one and all for the info.  Got a gun show in a couple of weeks and I'll need to stock up on powder.

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