25 Wooters Copperhead

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  • Last Post 24 January 2010
KenK posted this 16 August 2009

 .222 Remington necked up to 25 Caliber.

I'm slowly but surely putting the pieces together to get this done.

I've got the donor rifle, a Model 700 Classic in .221 Fireball, that shoots very poorly now.  Dies, brass and mould.

The bullet is an LBT that is .782 long and weighs about 95 grains.  I had originally planned on using a 12 twist barrel but am now thinking I better go with a 10.

I also have to decide whether to keep it as a repeater or just get a single shot adaptor and be done with it.  Some have opined that it is going to be difficult to get it to feed and eject because of the Fireball bolt.  A .222/.223  magazine box, spring and follower are about $50.

I'm looking at a Krieger barrel in “light target” contour at 26” which should give me a rifle weight of about 10 pounds.

I plan on having a local gunsmith do this work and of course will talk to him about reamers and such before I buy anything but am figuring the cost of a finish chamber reamer, thoater, and go-no go gauges from PTG. 

Any opinions or suggestions would be welcome.

Here is a picture of a dummy cartridge I made up next to a .257 Roberts for comparison.

 

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roadie posted this 18 August 2009

Ken, From what I've seen the ballistics should be close to the 25-35 WCF. I'm just curious as to what the rifle will be used for, I'm assuming from the weight, that it will be mostly shot off a bench, but at what ranges?

The .25 caliber is one of my favorites and I think much overlooked.

I don't use Rem. actions so am no help on whether it will feed well or at all. roadie

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KenK posted this 18 August 2009

roadie wrote: Ken, From what I've seen the ballistics should be close to the 25-35 WCF. I'm just curious as to what the rifle will be used for, I'm assuming from the weight, that it will be mostly shot off a bench, but at what ranges?

I plan on using it for general cast bullet target shooting.  My home range is limited to 100 yards so that is my main focus but I would certainly like it to be capable of shooting 200 yards.

I have very little interest in hunting anymore.  I have no doubts the 25-222 would be a capable deer rifle with jacketed bullets in this area.  I've killed a bunch of deer over the past 25 years with my Roberts and the Sierra 90 grain bullet at moderate velocities.

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roadie posted this 18 August 2009

The Sierra 90 grain BTHP was always the most accurate in my Roberts Imp. It actually shot better at 200 then 100, I thought possibly it was'nt stabilizing until after 100. I have yet to try cast in the Roberts, I am working with smaller cartridges, 25-20 32-20 and in the subsonic area, neighbors are too close and anti-noise.

roadie

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 August 2009

Howdy Ken... I like the idea of your project, as there aren't enough CBA people shooting the .25 ' s.  And a .222-25 just has to be a winner.

FWIW, I think it would be interesting to see what you could do at 200 yards ...  the .25 to 7 mm should in the end be better than the 30's, at least in a rifle less than unlimited class ... just from the ease of holding and shooting a lighter bullet with a pretty good BC... from a 10-12 lb rifle with a roundish stock.

IMHO, you don

Unless you plan to obsess and try for some groups under 1/2 moa (g) I suggest not to specify a chamber neck that you have to neck turn everything for.  Take the bullet you want to shoot, and the brass you will be using ( suggest Lapua brass ) and specify a chamber neck diameter not over 0.001 larger than the measurement over the seated bullet.  If you love pain and patience, and that extra smaller group occasionally, you might go for a neck that will take just a very little neck turning.

I do mostly coyote and pdog rifles for my buddies, and use close, but not neck turned dimensions, usually with takeoff barrels from BR shooters, and most all will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 moa with only pillar bedding, free float, and a mild blueprinting of the action...oh, with MJ, that is (g    sigh   ) ...  don't bother looking for a BR takeoff in a 25, nobody uses them, mostly because there are few if any BR quality bullets.

I would go with the 12 twist for a tad better accuracy, that should stabilize up to about 100 gr cast, as long as they are slightly blunt.  Personally I have several  high BC , sharp  pointed molds, but have not got any of them to shoot well, at least at 1600 fps or better.  I also suggest you go for single-shot all the way, you can always fight the magazine headache later if you need another hobby.

Just some thoughts, ken campbell, deltawerkes

 

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KenK posted this 19 August 2009

Thanks for the suggestions Ken. 

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CB posted this 19 August 2009

Ken K

Your's is an admirable Cast rifle project. I like rifle projects that are based on .222/.223 cases. As far as yours I would go with a barrel more in the 24” range. I have a Rem 722 in .222. We removed the front sight, the barrel was originally 26” and now it is 24.5” the gun handles and is balanced better. As far as using the box  magazine or ramp to me it would depend if you want to hunt or use it for range shooting. For twist you wood be better of with the 1-10 for the 95 grn bullet. The bolt should not be an issue probably the same size bolt Remington uses for a .222 in a 700. If the .221 bolt is a xp 100 size your smith can work with it.

All in all a good project. The bullet looks good. Good luck.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2009

Local shop has an L461 Sako already in this caliber. Checked on August 20 and it is still there and can be had for about $550 plus shipping to your FFL.  Contact info on the tag.  You couldn't do the gunsmith work for that. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 19 August 2009

Ed Harris wrote: Local shop has an L461 Sako already in this caliber. If interested PM me and I will see if it is still there and send the particulars.

I just sold a nice little L461 Mannlicher in 222 that would have been great for a conversion or fine as is !

 

Not sure the Sako collectors would wanna hear of someone taking that little Mannlicher and rebarreling it though !

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Paul Pollard posted this 20 August 2009

Ed

Is there any indication of the twist on this Sako rifle?

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Ed Harris posted this 21 August 2009

Paul Pollard wrote: Ed

Is there any indication of the twist on this Sako rifle? No there isn't, but if you call the shop they might be able to check it for you.  Ask for Casio if he is there and mention that Ed Harris passed on the info.  Otherwise anyone in the shop should be able to help, they are nice folks.  Rifle came in from an estate.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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NoDakJak posted this 23 August 2009

The 25 Wooters Tooter, alias the 25 Copperhead. It has intrigued me since I read Wooters article about it forty years ago. I have read that jacketed bullets up to 87 grains can approximate factory 250.3000 velocities due to the higher pressures allowed in a bolt action. I have been planning to build one for a lot of years but just couldn't seem to find a Sako L-461 action. Right now I have a CZ-527 action or a Mini-Mauser action that would be suitable. I have also considered having my Ruger #3 that is chambered to 223 rebored to 25. The twist will definetly be one in ten as my favorite bullet is 257312. I am shooting seven 25 caliber rifles at present and it has been much more accurate than in the slower twists.
When Wooters developed this cartridge a similar cartridge was being produced commercially in Australia by the “Super Cartridge Company". Rifles were also produced on the small Sako action but I am unsure who built them. I wonder if Super is still in business and still produces the cartridge. There should be much loading data available from our Austrailian brethren. Neil

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NoDakJak posted this 01 September 2009

I just called Sharpshooters to purchase the rifle and was informed that it was sold. Did any of the forum members get the rifle? Neil

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BustemAgain posted this 01 September 2009

Yes.  I recieved it last week. I have wanted a 25 Copperhead since I was kid and read a John Wooters article about it in Guns and Ammo.  This must have been after his original spate of articles about its genesis because this had to have been in the 1980's.

Anyways the rifle is quite nice and appears to have been fired very little if at all.  It arrived in its original box and appears to have been purchased originally in 1972.  The current barrel has a 1in 12 twist.  I have an RCBS 25-100-FN mould gathering dust some where and wonder what my chances of getting it to stabilize are.  I would be heavy into this project already but the 25-222 dies I ordered from CH-4D are shaving brass quite badly on one side of the neck and are going back tommorrow for some attention.  I will try my best to let you all know how this rifle works out for me.

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NoDakJak posted this 02 September 2009

Great! I'm glad that someone on the forum managed to get the rifle. I reckon that I had better get off my duff and get mine built. I think that I will use a 1 in 10 twist as it seems to provide better accuracy in my tests. I should think that the 1 in 12 would be a trifle slow for your 100 grain FN but you never really know for sure until you try. One odd occurrence was when I was testing 25-20 loads in my Savage Model 23. A Lyman, 90 grain RN indicated tipping in most loads and keyholed with several. Accuracy was nonexistent. In a later test I wanted to see if the bullet could be fired with the gascheck. The bullet was sized and lubed as normal but without the gas check. A starting load of 2400 was dropped in the case and then I filled the case with moderately tamped drier lint. The lint was further compressed by the bullet. I was flabbergasted to find that it was one of the most accurate loads that I had fired through that rifle. Very odd! Definetly keep us posted. Neil

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casper_zip posted this 24 January 2010

Hey there:

I also was bitten about 40 years ago by the Handloader Article by John Wooters with his 25 CopperHead.

He selected the 222 for the long neck especially for cast bullets. I had the custom shop build me a Super 14” T/C contender barrel, paid a small fortune to RCBS for dies.

This is one dandy, super accurate round. I mostly shoot bullets other than cast, altho now, I am testing that. I finally got some 25 caliber 86 grainers.

You cannot go wrong with this potent little and beautiful round.

Best,

Casper_zip aka Hornet

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Reg Lingle posted this 24 January 2010

Hey Ken: Try the relatively new Speer Bullet. 257 hollow point “MHP". Shoots like a house afire in my Mod 88 - 25 “Souper” (308). It does the first 3 shots of a full bedded M88 into a little hole all of the time. See attached, I was shooting a 30 at the same time so ignore that hole. Reg

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