Mauser Bolt wont close easily, feedback please??

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  • Last Post 11 April 2010
corerf posted this 10 November 2009

Acquired a Belgian 98 sporter at a pawn shop a few days ago. I initially bought it more for the $700 chunk of XX fancy walnut than for the rest of the gun. Anyway, ran a cleaning rod thru it and found the first 2 inches of the bore seem like sandpaper. Its a 220 improved, has little signs of being shot (that I can find) on a generic ?? 24 inch barrel but the bore is a mess like someone really beat it up cleaning it with a hammer??, file?? crowbar?? dunno. I won't put any ammo thru it, I dont' think the barrel is worth wasting some brass on and starting a new caliber I don't want. It will get rebarreled ASAF (thats as soon as funds, not as soon as possible) to 6 x 284.

My problem is.......when I try to close the bolt (bent, forged nicely sometime in the 1960's, drilled, tapped, scoped), stock 98 floorplate, magwell, follower,,,,,,,the bolt must be pushed forward with some intent to be able to roll it to locked.

In other words the bolt handle had to be pushed forward like the bolt is spring loaded and must overcome the spring to get the bolt to rotate to locked. I am having a hard time describing it. I shot my savage and model 70 today (770), they rolllike butter down on an empty chamber, no forward thrust or force is required.

I had my dad take a lok at it, he gingerly said, “you just have to push a bit on it". Well no duh dad, thanks for stating the obvious. Love you dad but that didn't help me.

Anyway, for those that are more experienced with Mauser typical operation and feel, is this norma???. I can't believe a German infantryman would have to push the bolt forward with such pressure to cycle the action. I dont have to beat on it or anything, quick bolt closure with intent gets it done but if I dont use some effort, the lugs seem to bounce into eachother slightly.

Put this way, on a bench rest, I won't be able to leave the gun at rest and cycle it. I will have to slam the bolt (on an empty chamber) a tiny bit to fully rotate. I don't think this is right.

Can the bolt be making contact with the barrel or extrator, or what the heck??

Thanks in adavnce for any help.

Mike

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RicinYakima posted this 10 November 2009

  1. Sounds to me like you have an after market trigger in the action, sear too far to the rear. Or the bolt sleve is messed up and releasing the firing pin down onto the sear. It should be held back utill bolt rotation begins.

  2. Or the back of the barrel not relieved enough for the extractor.

Ric

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corerf posted this 10 November 2009

Wow. Timney trigger was in the gun. Whats the most likely issue??

If I pull the trigger off completely, will that relieve the issue (if it's the trigger)???

I will pull trigger to see first off.

I suppose the barrel interference can't be seen (by me at least) until the barrel is off?? I cant see and marks on the breech that show any contact, not that it would be a sign.

I will try a magnum bolt in it from another belgian I have. Just for fit and empty operation. I thought about that after I posted earlier.

Thanks Ric

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beemer posted this 10 November 2009

Are you sure it is a 98 and not one of the earlier ones like a 95 that cock on closing?

Dave

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RicinYakima posted this 10 November 2009

corerf,

Pull the trigger, if the sear falls, try closing the bolt. If it work ok, that is the problem.

Remove the extractor. It it closes now, that is the problem.

Ric

 

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corerf posted this 10 November 2009

Ric,

To be clear on your instructions for the trigger- Cycle the bolt out and back most way until it reaches the pressure point. Pull the trigger with pressure on it. If the bolt closes swiftly and properly, the trigger is the problem. Yes?

extractor I am clear on.

I am concerned that the receiver face was cut too much, that could cause the extractor to interfere at barrel, yes? (if it's the extractor).

Beemer, yes I am sure it is a 98

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wyobill posted this 10 November 2009

My guess ismthatnthe locking lugs on the bolt do not fit the,locking recesses in the receiver. Blacken the locking lugs of the bolt and placr it into the reciever , then close 1) without pressure and ck=heck the marks on the ligs and 2) close with pressure and compare the marks on the lugs. think the bolt was not lapped into the receiver. A litle lapping should fix the prioblem. wyobill

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canalupo posted this 10 November 2009

corerf

Try and find go and no go gages. When the new barrel was installed, it may  not have been back set correctly, ifyou lap the lugs and the barrel was set to deep when you change barrels you may have trouble with new headspace to lug measurements.

Good Luck

Bob D

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Fg1 posted this 10 November 2009

It could be someone put an aftermarket speedlock kit it with high power striker spring like a 25lb instead of normal 18-19 lb spring . 

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RicinYakima posted this 10 November 2009

corerf,

Yes, you can do it that way. Or remove the firing pin and bolt sleeve, and try it with just the stripped bolt.

Ric

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corerf posted this 10 November 2009

FG1, I questioned the spring rate, after seeing the timney trigger. I read Midway catalogs, one could assume that a 220 improved, trigger.... what else could one do yourself to “technically” improve the action, the firing pin. I just had no idea that would increase bolt closure force. But thats EXACTLY what it feels like.

FG1 have you experienced this first hand??

Ric, I will give a try tomorrow.

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Fg1 posted this 10 November 2009

coref, yes but with a speedlock kit years ago from Dayton Traister . Felt like spring was stacking as bolt was closed. Have you taken striker assembly out of bolt to see what it looks like ?

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corerf posted this 11 November 2009

I will diss. bolt tonight. I found at least 4 other posts on other forums and sites indicating the same problem with the spring kit. I hope there is a speedlock kit in the bolt, so that I know for sure that is what is causing the problem. Thanks FG1

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galenaholic posted this 26 November 2009

I certainly would like to see a picture of that rifle. It sounds like it's cocking on the closing stroke to me in which case it isn't a 98 Mauser.

The only other thing I can think of is if it came with the bases for a scope,could one of the screwsholding the base on the receiver ring be protruding just enought to make pushing the bolt home difficult? I had that problem one time on a sportered 1903 Springfield. if that's the case, grind a bit off the end of the screw and that would fix that.

Paul B.

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

I found the problem with the bolt closure. Ric had it on the spot.

So I have figured out how the mauser bolt works completely and the cocking piece sear boss was the problem. The cocking piece when used with a timney sportsman trigger, “can” be too long or project too far forward, I believe Ric mentioned this.

As the cocked bolt comes forward the cocking piece sear begins to intercept the trigger sear. At this point the Timney sear is set too far toward the tang and causes the trigger sear to even further compress the firing pin spring. After studying Jerry Kuhnhausens book on Mausers, it became very clear. If the sears engage too deep forcing the further spring compression, there is too much force encountered as the bolt closes. The bolt must be pushed up to .100 inch or more forward to allow the bolt rotation lock plunger to depress far enough to allow the bolt to rotate to lock. So mash it hard, force the firing pin spring back even further and to overcock just to get the plunger to drop the 1/3 travel required to allo the bolt to rotate. Additionally the rotation lock plunger had a spring that someone had cut, stretched, kinked and left the plunger covered with really big burrs and original machine marks. I polished the burrs off and smoothed the bearing surfaces a bit with an india stone, collapsed the spring to proper length minus a few thou to weaken it's stress level, oils and reassembled. The plunger was hanging on a burr, causing EVEN MORE difficulty as forward and circular travel was required to close the bolt. I used a coarse stone to cut the leading face of the cocking piece sear slowly. It was a full tenth that was removed before the assembly moved properly. Timney mentioned this directly and indirectly in their instructions as a fitment issue that may develop. So after the cut, india stone polish and clean up, there was still a bit of trigger adjustment that Ric also mentioned that hindered the smooth operation. BE advised, I probably would have been good to very good with even more removal of cocking piece sear material, I quit due to fear of overcut. Theres is .020 spec'd as necessary clearance between sears in JK's Mauser book for proper fit. I “might” have that but likely it's a bit tighter still.

I was not enthused about the 2lb trigger pull, I prefer a really light, safe trigger. So I investigated the trigger spring and found that I could cut the Timney, deburr, reassemble and adjust to under 1LB. It now has about 1LB for trigger weight, maybe as little as 12 oz. It's just as crisp and creepless due to not touching the Timney sears or surfaces. The pull adjust is now at minimum and can't be further adjusted unless I stretch the spring or add a full length lighter spring. It won't slam fire under any circumstances. I add back some engagement on the timney sear to stabilize the environment further. I am very happy with the trigger.

The bolt closes smoothly but you do have to use force to rotate the bolt, it's simply friction from the lug faces not being lapped at all. The lugs leave a lot to be desired from what I have measured but I can't afford to strip a fresh barreling from someone else down and re-headspace and lap lugs. The bolt was dry prior to my work and adding a drop or two to the bolt bearing surfaces, boltways, cocking piece OD, etc... made am improvement in smooth operation. Eventually (maybe sooner than later pending how it shoots) it will get added treatment to refine its operation but for now, it is safe and bolt closes correctly.

Thanks Ric for your help, your direction pointed me in the right direction. BTW: I was bummed NOT to find an aftermarket firing pin and spring causing the problem... but that one can't be fixed anyway. I am sure the stock spring and pin will do just fine. Thanks RIC!!:dude:

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RicinYakima posted this 30 November 2009

Corerf,

I've been down the same road, and had the same problem. Now, you only have to reharden the surface. You can do it yourself with some Kasite hardening compound and a propane torch.

Ric

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

Any idea where I can buy it??

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

Correction, found it at Brownells

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

Ric, I am just doing the cocking piece, yes?? Thats the only piece I hacked on. Water or oil quench??

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RicinYakima posted this 30 November 2009

Its been several years since I've used it, but it seems to me it was oil quench. If I remember I used 10 weight motor oil. Yes just the surface that you cut back, not the whole thing. When I was doing lots of S&W antique pistol repair, it worked very well and would harden at least 0.006” deep. That is all that you would ever need. And remember to have it at final finish, as it doesn't polish well after it is done.

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

I read up on the process. Seems very simple. I have it on it's way from Brownells. Since it's the cocking piece and it's small, the whole piece will be processed. But.. it seems very straightforward. I will polish and finish as needed prior to treatment. I am hoping that the piece will come out with the case coloring like seen on H&R's, Old Savages, etc. It won't match but it will look trick and unique. Does the case treat provide a similar rust prevent like bluing?? I have never seen a case receiver rust, acted like it was blued.

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RicinYakima posted this 30 November 2009

Sorry, but your not going to have any colors, just flat grey. That is why I just did the contact surfaces I worked on. If I just did the sears on triggers and hammers, the rest would have a nice “heat/niter” blue color. The part that is grey is only where the powder rests when it is heated. I'm not a metalurigist, so don't know how it would effect the whole piece if you did it in a box.

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corerf posted this 30 November 2009

Then I'll just do the sear area. The rest of it hopefully wont untemper. But it's so small, I think I can get the whole part uniform up to temp with a large torch tip. I could go old fashioned and use my charcoal barbeque and a vacuum on blow to stoke the coals in a can. I can maintain a fairly consistent temp. Sounds like I will need to blu it after.

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NITROTRIP posted this 10 April 2010

corerf, I work with a lot of Mausers, just like them I guess. When someone tells me you will never get them to shoot as good as brand xxxx I will prove them wrong. I have a pile of trophys from hunter benchrest with my Mausers. First thing I found, you never lap bolt lugs like you do on other actions. They are case hardened, some thin. You will go thru the case and then you will start getting setback. Even if you replace a bolt body,set your headspace to 0” and after about 300rds bolt contact most likely will be 2/3 anyway. Unless your bolt is junk to start with. Or someone bent the action removeing the original barrel. Other than those 2 things I have never had to touch the lugs on any of the better manufactured actions. Timmny makes exelent triggers, just not for Mausers. I have a rather large pile of them that I removed. For the same reasons you were haveing troubles. 1 trigger I went rounds with Timmny tech support. Bolt did'nt cock at all. They said the bolt cocking peice was massed up. Funny, that trigger would not work on 7 other actions. They had bolt on and setup double sets and untouched Bold triggers. They all worked fine. I have had 2 that were hard to close the bolts on a empty chamber, replaced the Timmney triggers and they worked fine. I have 2 Timmney's on Ruger's and they work great. Had the same troubles you discribed and they all were the trigger. Just what I found that worked for me. Did you get your barrel on and chambered? And how does it shoot? Enjoy the weather it is finely spring, Rick

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cityboy posted this 10 April 2010

canalupo wrote: , ifyou lap the lugs and the barrel was set to deep when you change barrels you may have trouble with new headspace to lug measurements.

Good Luck

Bob D

Be real areeful about lapping luggs on a Mauser. The steel used in them is a low-carbon type that is carburized and heat treated. If the lugs are lapped, you may break through the hard outer surface, and this will result in the lugs being set back increasing the headspace.

Jim

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corerf posted this 10 April 2010

Thought this thread went to bed but I never did a final followup on the deal.

Ric in Yakima hit the nail on the head. The cocking piece was over-engaged due to the timmney trigger.

So following the mauser manual and the timmney crap instructions, I cut the cocking piece back about an 1/8 inch. Then I thought I overcut it but no.... thats pretty hard to do. I then used kasenite to surface harden the sear area mostly but also rehardened after a thorough polishing, the entire cocking piece. The bolt was sent out to the smith for rebarrel to 220 Swift, still waiting for the action to return from Oregon.

Bottom line, it as the aftermarket trigger. I was able to get a 6oz trigger as well, and less if desired, after some mods to the springs for the timmney. I like a light trigger. Hunting for me usually doesn't entail climbing mount everest with a round in the hole so accidental discharge is actually a major f-up if I do it. I can slam the bolt aweful hard and it wont drop. But you can make it go!

It was a success and thanks to all that pitched in with the help. If I ever see my rifle again (maybe by next year), I will report on accuracy. But until then.... I will keep casting.. but not for that rifle!

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RicinYakima posted this 11 April 2010

Hope everything works out,corerf! We will be following your adventure. Ric

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