Premium cases--worth the expense?

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  • Last Post 18 May 2010
Pete Voss posted this 16 May 2010

I post this query in this category although my interest is in 200 yd. over-the-course matches. I am using some benchrest techniques such as flash hole de-burring, primer pocket uniforming, etc. but have bought only Winchester and Remington brass so far for my '03 Springfield. Would I gain anything by using Lapua or Norma brass? I know bullet quality is probably more important and I am casting some pretty decent bullets from my Lyman and Saeco molds but if I can shrink 200 yd groups by an inch it would significantly help my scores. Along the same lines, what about using a Wilson in-line bullet seater? I called them and they will make a custom seater in .311 (or any size) for about $100, or about double the regular cost. So far I'm neck sizing and seating with regular Redding dies.

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RicinYakima posted this 16 May 2010

Pete, the key word is “significantly"!. If you buy Lapua, you should not have to do primer pocket prep work, with Norma, they tend to run shallow and need depth control. Remington and Winchester brass, in some lots, have about 5% tabs on the inside from primer hole piercing. Neck run out can be an issue with some types of brass, but Springfield barrels are not really round anyway.

In a star guaged National Match Springfield barrel, bullet run out of 0.000” to 0.003” is not noticeable on the target. With average SA barrels, you will not get much gain, about 0.100” for a long series of 10 shot groups at 100 yards with full bench rest preped brass. No brass preparation will give you a one inch reduction if you are already shooting 3” groups at 200 yards.

I did an article in the Fouling Shot about dies. If will depend upon the set you have, not brand, as some are just better than others. However, Wilson dies loaded more rounds straighter than any of the other dies.

In my opinion, if you are not checking bullet run out on your loads, you don't have any idea of the quality of ammo you are making. It would be like shooting a match on a windy day without wind flags.

HTH, Ric

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DAMRON G posted this 17 May 2010

I shoot a 30-06 with plainbased loads and reload at the bench with only one Remington case.That case has been fired 600 times with light charges of Bullseye and only had to be FL sized twice.I do this because it is convenient,but when i use multiple random year LC cases i didn't see any better accuracy.Although the  best accuracy i get with plainbase is 1 MOA.@ 100 and 3 MOA @ 200  in 1903 Springfields and US Enfields so maybe a more accurate combination would be able to tell the difference.

 

GAD V

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giorgio de galleani posted this 17 May 2010

This case prepping  work of inferior  quality cases costs money  ( buyng tools and custom dies) and time.And time is more precious than cash,in my opinion.

When I need bench rest ,around  1 moa accuracy,I use small numbers of  lapua or norma brass cases.

When I need hunting or casual  offhand target shooting or action shooting accuracy,i use standard ( made for the civil market)  non GI ,I mean US or western world  brass.

I use the various balkan brass for the SKS and merry plinking in all other calibers.

I do not know if my methods give me  better accuracy or not.

They give me peace of mind,and when my mind is relaxed I surely shoot better.

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JSH posted this 17 May 2010

imho, you can only gain so much from case work, providing this is not a brand new match grade barrel. If I could find some thick neck walled 06 cases I would grab them and neck turn them for my 1903. Just to see if it made any difference.

There may be a few things one does that makes a noticable difference on case prep for the old war horses. But when one looks back as to how these may have been treated or handled in years past, any “match” accuracy is pretty much gone. That is short of a total rebuild and rebarrel. I deburr all of the flash holes on everything anymore. More to uniform flash hole diameter than anything. I use issue sights and vintage brass, just because that seems like the thing to do. Not to down talk what SOME of these old milsurps are capable of with a lot of time and effort put into them. But if you put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig. As a BR shooter friend of mine told me on this same subject. You can't make a gun shoot to BR standards with just case, primer, powder and bullet selection. You have to have a BR base to start with. jeff

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JetMech posted this 17 May 2010

I have a question along this line: I'm using Remington and Federal brass in my Springfield. After neck turning, the case neck thickness is at .011. What is the thickness of Lapua out of the box?

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billwnr posted this 17 May 2010

The .30/06 Lapua's I bought were .0145 and within +/- .0005 so other than making sure the primer pockets were the same depth, didn't do anything else with them.

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JetMech posted this 17 May 2010

Bill,

 So, in reference to your post on the 30BR barrel length, “Tight necks are a plus", using Lapua or Norma brass would be a plus from the accuracy point of view because loaded case neck diameter would be closer to chamber dimensions, even with just neck sizing cases. Is that correct?

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billwnr posted this 17 May 2010

That's my beliefs Bill. It works for the .30 BR but the military .30/06 is another thing. Military chamber reamers are generous and I don't see how one would get tight neck brass other than “sizing” down a .50 BMG case and “trimming to fit".

In principle, the Lapua brass should lend to the more accurate loads. In practice, there are many more variables to consider and I have shot scores with regular bulk brass the equal of the Lapua. I'd already switched to Lapua at that point so I don't know if the bulk brass would have kept up.

RicinYakima does quite well without resorting to the pricey Lapua brass.

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Pete Voss posted this 17 May 2010

Thanks for the input, guys. As to thicker case necks, I have run 30-06 brass through a 308 sizer and turned the necks to get thicker necks for a 308. I thought maybe sizing down 35 Whelen brass might do the same for the '06, but no--I believe 35 Whelen brass is just '06 brass sized up to begin with. As Ric says, I guess I'll have to buy a concentricity guage to see where I'm at. Is your article in TFS in the next issue? I don't remember seeing it.

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RicinYakima posted this 18 May 2010

No, I think it was Sept-Oct 2006 or 2007. It may still be on the computer, email me with your email adress and I will send it if I can find it.  Ric

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giorgio de galleani posted this 18 May 2010

Many years ago I made a good deal buying a large number of Norma 30-06 cases that I used for 200 meters prone shooting with a 03-A3 and a 17 US Enfield.

Necks did not need turning,flashholes in  ewstern european brass are not punched,so need no flash hole deburring,.

Neck sized cases are uniform  in lenght and,if you discard inside neck (pull trough) expanders and use RCBS expander dies ,with cast bullets loads  I am still using the cases I bought ,fired once,in the years 1982- 1985.

In semiauto rifles you have to full lenght size every time,trim often the cases,use higher press loads,actually ruin your brass rapidly,so any SAFE GI brass will do.

I use small quantities of Lapua Brass for  the quest of small groups,in a couple of HB winchester 70 in 308 win and 223.

I have a tight neck 98 mauser  sporter barrel,a sad mistake this tight neck business and absolutely not worth the mess to have to use neck turned brass.

The proverb of the lipstick un the sow, applies.

In pistol shooting I behave more like a pig myself,I scrounge and collect with a broom and a shovel buckets of spent brass from the concrete floors of the gunclubs,pass them  a short time in a tumbler to clean the dirt that might ruin the interior of the dies ,and reload them with progressive presses.

Cases are not to be squeaky clean,those fired with cast bullets  run more smoothly through the dies,I want to clean  'em just from sand and dirt.

Never trimmed a pistol case in my life.Most 45 acp brass is much shorter than the specs,as is 9x21 brass.

We are not allowed to use the 9 mm nato rounds,and wall thickness of the various makes of 9x21 cases is pretty uniform.

Using 38 sp brass in 357 guns is the norm,44 mag & special cases give no problems.

45 LONG COLT Winchester and WW cases  use different shellplates in my 550 Dillon machine,and I am compelled to separate those cases from  cases from the rest of the world.

RP,starline ,Korea can all be bunched together.

I would never buy a handgun caliber non reloadable with tungsten carbide dies.

And use as much as I can the Lee factory crimp die,a misleading name,for a die that sizes the outside of the loaded cartridge,avery clever idea indeed. 

Please correct me if you feel my practices are dangerous.I always heed prudent advice.

I almost never use maximum loads, at least for 90% of my shhoting.

Pin loads are another story,no one is perfect.  

 

 

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JSH posted this 18 May 2010

I know a few guys around here that shoot some informal matches. The “shave” their brass, just enogh to get any high spots off of it. I watched and listened. Their scores were no better than mine. I partial neck size my brass for my 1903, just enough to need to use an M die. Then, with the M die flare just enough to get an empty case to chamber in that particular rifle. My thoughts are the larger lower half of the neck will align it with the bore some, along with the scrapping action of the flared mouth. Works for me but that doens't mean it will work for every one. Also worked in the Krag and the Swede. But it won't work in the Argentine. Speaking of neck turning and neck thickness. When I started fooling with the Argentine, I made my brass from 06. I know it may have been better to turn, but I reamed them. it shot good right out of the gate. I had a couple of pieces of brass, laying on the bench I missed reaming. So, I neck turned them after a bit of measuring and chamber casting. They shot NO better or worse than the reamed cases. Maybe lucky that everything is well aligned in my reaming fixture?

Thick necked 06 brass, some place i ran across a thread on it. But, parent brass was hard to find and cost prohibitive for me. jeff

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Pete Voss posted this 18 May 2010

Could it have been necking down 40 Whelen basic brass--listed by Midway from Quality Cartridge? That thought ocurred to me--but the brass is expensive at $2 per case and I think you would need a 35 Whelen sizing die for an intermediate sizing.

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