how do paper patches work ??

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  • Last Post 24 June 2014
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 June 2013

oh yeah ... anybody know why paper patches work ... not what but HOW ?  i got the Mathews books ..

but 2600 fps with a dead soft alloy and a paper wrap ? .... paper stops gas blow-by ? ...  paper stops bullet slump , even from dead soft lead ?  ..

hey, maybe paper cleans the barrel each shot ..  like COW  ..  there are similarities, ya know ::: both allow improvements in velocity, but neither shoot 1/2 moa  ...  a clean barrel usually throws the first shot, ya know ..  maybe a dirty paper patch ( a dirty COW  ???  ) ...would be interesting ..

would a big long paper wad crammed behind the bullet do the same thing ?

i have used ” reversed ” paper cups i cobbled up behind the bullet ... but also reversed plastic cups ... gee, didn't try for 2600 fps ... make a note to self  ... i remember andy barniskis also played with reversed regular copper checks

paper patches call my name, but then don't talk to me ...( g ) ..

ken

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onondaga posted this 12 June 2013

Ken,

I've only tried paper patched bullets in my .458 Win Mag.  They shoot just as accurately as gas checked bullets for me, but I didn't push them faster.

 I had to make a plastic pattern just right by trial and error to use to cut around and make the patches just right so the seam in the paper would match up with 2 turns of paper on a bullet. I used tracing paper from a craft store.

The only drawback was that I had to load rounds singly, they would get damaged feeding up from the magazine..

I do have hopes of trying PP in other calibers too. My .500 S&W Mag rifle is  single shot and I bet PP would be nice in that caliber to try higher velocities.

There is so many creative ways the patches are applied. I settled on wetting the patches with dish washing liquid then rolling them on by hand over glass. After letting the soap thoroughly dry, then I applied Johnson's Paste to the patched bullets and sized them.

The Lee push through bullet sizing dies work well for this as  the piston pushes the bottom of the bullet and flattens the folded waxed patch well on the bottom of the bullet.

Mine sure work well to lube as they are saturated with JPW that dries hard and stays put.

Gary

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jhalcott posted this 13 June 2013

I'm just glad to know they do work. I've tried them in more than a few calibers with good to lousy results. I had some trouble feeding from the magazine also, resorting to single loading. BUT HEY, how many shots do you NEED for a deer?!

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30-30 Wesson posted this 15 June 2013

Yes, it does seem that something as fragile as thin paper, will protect a soft lead boolit, on it's violent way down the bore of your rifle. It doesn't have much tensile strength, but when compressed between two hard surfaces, can withstand tremendous pressures and not crumble. There are lots of workshop machines, that have paper shims, under column feet, under guillotine blades and anywhere there was the need for a thin shim, in setting the machine up. I used layers of it, when getting the column of my mill, square to the table.

I love using PP boolits and have not had any bad results. I apply the paper wet with plain tap water, let them dry and before loading them into the case, wipe a small amount of CH4D Case Sizing lube, over the paper. This helps the PP boolit slide into the neck and moisture proofs the paper. I think that if you can get the boolit into the neck, without deforming or tearing the paper, then you won't have any problems.

I DON'T size them beforehand. If the loaded round will fit the chamber, with clearance for the neck of the case, then they are safe to use. I know that some PP shooters, don't even size the neck of the case, because the patched boolit is usually a snug fit in the unsized case.
I wouldn't use them in a tubular magazined LA rifle, but in single shots, they are not a problem.

The paper must cover the boolit up beyond the point where and un-patched boolit would contact the rifling. If you can chamber it, in your rifle and then remove it, with no rifling marks on the bare nose of the boolit, then it will work.

I also get best results, by using a dacron wad over the powder.

The best thing about shooting PP, is the cleanup! Nothing could be simpler. Just a wipe, with Ed's Red, for the powder fouling and the job's done. :)

Happy shooting.

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Dirtybore posted this 29 January 2014

The most important item is they stop leading. The paper jacket does this because it is in contact with the rifle's bore rather than the lead bullet. By using soft bullets, though not as soft as pure lead in round ball muzzleloaders, the bullet can be driven at different velocities and not lead the bore. As long as the bullet isn't very hard, it will bump up and fill the riflelings.

Yes, in a black powder cartridge, the bullet will bump up and fill the riflings. Oh, you thought the paper was as tight as the groove diameter? It just may be but when a spent bullet is retrieved from the back stop bank, it will look as if it never had a paper patch on it. You will see the rifling grooves imbedded in the bullet.

What takes place is that the bullet bumps up due to the blast of the black powder and squeases itself in the bore. The paper patch protects it fron the bore, yet removes itself from the bullet within a few feet of exiting the muzzle. That bumping up of the bullet is what squeases it into the grooves, paper and all, so the bullet will actually have the rifling grooves printed on it.

In review, the paper patch or paper jacket protects the bullet from leading the bore. It also protects the bullet from gas cutting, that all time enemy of all cast bullets, plain base or not.

This is 1870 to 1890 technology. The advent of smokeless powder and metal jacketed bullets after 1890 changed everything. Kind-of sort-of like the personal compuer taking over the typerwriter in teh 1990's.   JR

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John Alexander posted this 29 January 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: oh yeah ... anybody know why paper patches work ... not what but HOW ?  i got the Mathews books ..

but 2600 fps with a dead soft alloy and a paper wrap ? .... paper stops gas blow-by ? ...  paper stops bullet slump , even from dead soft lead ?  ..

hey, maybe paper cleans the barrel each shot ..  like COW  ..  there are similarities, ya know ::: both allow improvements in velocity, but neither shoot 1/2 moa  ...  a clean barrel usually throws the first shot, ya know ..  maybe a dirty paper patch ( a dirty COW  ???  ) ...would be interesting ..

would a big long paper wad crammed behind the bullet do the same thing ?

i have used ” reversed ” paper cups i cobbled up behind the bullet ... but also reversed plastic cups ... gee, didn't try for 2600 fps ... make a note to self  ... i remember andy barniskis also played with reversed regular copper checks

paper patches call my name, but then don't talk to me ...( g ) ..

ken This thread has been the best short discussion of PP bullets that I have ever read by shooters who have obviously made it work.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing what shooters did in 1880 and getting the same good results which are plenty good enough for practical use ie hunting.  However, the fact remains (until proven otherwise) that the very best cast bullet accuracy is obtained with bare bullets.  People show up at the CBA nationals who have used PP successfully but they bring bare bullets to win.

Ken has raised interesting questions. HOW does it work.   How can pp bullets be improved still more to make them competitive with bare bullets (maybe by taking advantage of the higher velocities possible with pp?)  OR if we understood the fundamental reasons PP works  we might be able to apply it to other cast bullet shooting techniques and raise the bar for what is the best accuracy. 

Worth thinking about.

John 

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30-30 Wesson posted this 29 January 2014

John Alexander wrote: Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: oh yeah ... anybody know why paper patches work ... not what but HOW ?  i got the Mathews books ..

but 2600 fps with a dead soft alloy and a paper wrap ? .... paper stops gas blow-by ? ...  paper stops bullet slump , even from dead soft lead ?  ..

hey, maybe paper cleans the barrel each shot ..  like COW  ..  there are similarities, ya know ::: both allow improvements in velocity, but neither shoot 1/2 moa  ...  a clean barrel usually throws the first shot, ya know ..  maybe a dirty paper patch ( a dirty COW  ???  ) ...would be interesting ..

would a big long paper wad crammed behind the bullet do the same thing ?

i have used ” reversed ” paper cups i cobbled up behind the bullet ... but also reversed plastic cups ... gee, didn't try for 2600 fps ... make a note to self  ... i remember andy barniskis also played with reversed regular copper checks

paper patches call my name, but then don't talk to me ...( g ) ..

ken This thread has been the best short discussion of PP bullets that I have ever read by shooters who have obviously made it work.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing what shooters did in 1880 and getting the same good results which are plenty good enough for practical use ie hunting.  However, the fact remains (until proven otherwise) that the very best cast bullet accuracy is obtained with bare bullets.  People show up at the CBA nationals who have used PP successfully but they bring bare bullets to win.

Ken has raised interesting questions. HOW does it work.   How can pp bullets be improved still more to make them competitive with bare bullets (maybe by taking advantage of the higher velocities possible with pp?)  OR if we understood the fundamental reasons PP works  we might be able to apply it to other cast bullet shooting techniques and raise the bar for what is the best accuracy. 

Worth thinking about.

John 

Yes, John, it has been a good discussion and it's up to we modern shooters, to get the most from our available technology and equipment. After all, the PP shooters of old, didn't have all the modern powders, solvents, lubes, etc, to use, otherwise they would have developed accuracy to a higher level. 

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onondaga posted this 29 January 2014

There is info out there on improving the PP. Use Lee case sizing lube on the paper before rolling, let dry then size; this excellently waterproofs, shrinks and strengthens the paper. Use powdered graphite on a scrap of chamois skin and rub it into the patch on loaded rounds, this adds even more lube to enhance durability, velocity and even magazine function.

Gary

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30-30 Wesson posted this 30 January 2014

onondaga wrote: There is info out there on improving the PP. Use Lee case sizing lube on the paper before rolling, let dry then size; this excellently waterproofs, shrinks and strengthens the paper. Use powdered graphite on a scrap of chamois skin and rub it into the patch on loaded rounds, this adds even more lube to enhance durability, velocity and even magazine function.

Gary Yes, Gary, that's true, but I'm talking about trying new types of 'paper', film, whatever and modern lube recipes, instead of falling back on the old tried and true. I got really frustrated, in the beginning of my PP journey, because the Papers, that you fellas talk about, are just not available here in Oz. I finally saw the light and experimented with the papers available here.  I have had some wins and some losses, but it's cheap research and lots of FUN. :fire

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onondaga posted this 30 January 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=838>30-30 Wesson

In a pinch, your Post office or stationery shop may have Airpost Stationery, or an art-supply shop will have tracing paper. I use tracing paper that measures .0018” and get it at a craft store that has an art supply dept.   Get an accurate measurement by using a good micrometer! I use my Starrett #436 micrometer and measured 10 sheets together then divided by 10 for an average of .0018".

Polishing the inside of my Lee bullet sizing dies smooth & shiny was also a deal maker for not ruining my paper patches.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 30 January 2014

30-30 Wesson wrote: onondaga wrote: There is info out there on improving the PP. Use Lee case sizing lube on the paper before rolling, let dry then size; this excellently waterproofs, shrinks and strengthens the paper. Use powdered graphite on a scrap of chamois skin and rub it into the patch on loaded rounds, this adds even more lube to enhance durability, velocity and even magazine function.

Gary Yes, Gary, that's true, but I'm talking about trying new types of 'paper', film, whatever and modern lube recipes, instead of falling back on the old tried and true. I got really frustrated, in the beginning of my PP journey, because the Papers, that you fellas talk about, are just not available here in Oz. I finally saw the light and experimented with the papers available here.  I have had some wins and some losses, but it's cheap research and lots of FUN. :fire As with everything else I'm sure there is more than one way to skin this cat and some of you apparently have had good results.  There may be even more potential not yet discovered.   What I would love to see is for somebody (maybe one of you) to show up at CBA match with PP bullets and go home with all the marbles.  Short of that a Fouling Shot article reporting the results of MULTI GROUP AVERAGES good enough to get shooters attention and inspire more work with PP. John

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bandmiller2 posted this 23 June 2014

Seems paper patching might be the answer for under sized bullets. I have heard they will polish a bore, must be slightly abrasive. Frank C.

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onondaga posted this 23 June 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=5654>bandmiller2

 I hope your question also leads you to ask what is more abrasive to barrels, a waxed and graphite coated paper patch on a soft lead bullet  or a copper jacket on a bullet.

Gary

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bandmiller2 posted this 23 June 2014

I didn't say it was a bad thing, probably burnishing would be a better description. Frank C.

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bandmiller2 posted this 23 June 2014

Just read “paper 101” over at the boolet site its a stickie and well worth reading. Paper is abrasive but so is just about everything else we force down the barrel. Wonder if that Japanese craft bamboo paper with no additives would work. Frank C.

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30-30 Wesson posted this 24 June 2014

Hell fellas :) The only way you are NOT going to wear a barrel out, is by NOT shooting anything through it! I hope I get to do enough lead boolit shooting to wear a barrel out! I have worn one .25cal barrel out, by shooting jacketed bullets through it. That was fun. :)

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 June 2014

barrels don't wear out from bullets ... they become used up because gunpowder burns out the throats. by the time you notice it in a deer rifle the eroded part is 2 inches long ... and not concentric either.

benchresters notice it at as little as 400 shots of 30 grain powder charges. even with mj, bullet support is a biggie.

and sporting contour barrels are hard to chuck on, to set back the 2 inches required and rechamber ... fwiw, i like to leave about 6 inches of full diameter on a new barrel at the breech end, to allow a setback or two. cheep cheep.

ken

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