"Old School Boltguns"

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

UPDATED 21 Sept. 2013

Dennis Carlini, Dick Nearing and I have been fooling with some old .30-'06 sporters with cast bullets and have been having great fun!

Dennis is shooting a ca.1929 NRA Sporter.

I've been shooting a Winchester Model 54 made in 1934 and a German-built Euro sporter by Ernst Appel of Wurzburg.

Dick Nearing has been shooting a National Match 03.

Our goal has been to attain 2 inches or less at 100 yards, firing hunting type rifles with loads assembled for the goal of maximum economy and fun. We are using wheelweight alloy, casting bullets in bulk from gang molds, sticking to non-gaschecked loads at suitable velocities from 1000-1300 fps or so.

Early work was mostly with my NEI #69, 160 grains when cast of wheelweights, with charges from 6 to 9 grains of Bullseye.

Two “sweet” spots were observed. The first is in the subsonic range at 6 grains of Bullseye. Groups with heavier charges from 6.5 to 7.5 are entirely acceptable, but less consistent, I believe because bullets are subjected to transonic buffeting as they go subsonic before 100 yards. The second sweet spot appears at 7.8 grains where group averages tighten again to under 2” and they remain so up to the threshold of leading, which is about 9 grains of Bullseye in a smooth barrel, without a GC, approaching 1400 fps.

We have since gone over to similar bullets cast from new Heavy Metal .312-160-5 molds from the latest group buy. These seem to perform exactly like the old Walt Melander Scapoose, OR mold from the mid-1980s.

So we have met our project objective, achieving an average of 2” or less for five consecutive 5 shot groups, in a series of 25 consecutive rounds, discarding no data, at 100 yards.

With the best loads an average of 2 inches for a series of five ten-shot groups is attainable using a hunting scope of less than 6X, with our best “tweaked” loads.

Experimentation continues, but if anybody else has stepped into this pool, please share what has worked for you and in what rifle!

"Cheating,” firing my Mauser '06 sporter with 4x32mm Zeiss Diatal C scope, using bottom post of duplex reticle as aiming point, best series to date, five consecutive 5-shot group at 100 yds. averaged 1.56” with NEI #69, as cast, unsized, tumbled in LLA with 8.4 grs. Bullseye, for 1328 fps.

I later repeated testing this same charge using bullets cast from my new Heavy Metal .312-160-5 mold, firing 10-shot groups and got an average of 2.1” so I am happy.

Our advice is NOT to work up loads over the chronograph without actually shooting groups on paper. Just “watching the numbers” is a distraction from the real goal, which is ACCURACY!

When doing initial load workup, shooting only TEN SHOT groups is a great time saver, because doing so separates the “grand” from the ordinary very quickly. There are no “lucky” ten shot groups. If you get a round group with a dense center, THAT shows promise and is worth trying again.

--------------------DEFINING THE THREAD----------------

My own thought is that classic American “Old School” boltguns ended with the demise of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70. While there were earlier plunger ejector rifles, after the mid-1960s these became the dominant type and most hunting boltguns were no longer “Controlled Round” feed, in which the cartridge is guided under the extractor hook as it is stripped from the magazine. But if somebody has a “push-feeder” made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

Because this is not a formal competition class, but just a discussion topic, sporterized militaries are great, as long they are based on the classic Mauser, Springfield, Krag, etc. boltguns.

This thread is strictly nonofficial so we shall be tolerant of all nationalities and denominations as long as it is a boltgun in a “deer” caliber.

What have you got? What bullets and loads do you use, and what results have you gotten. Inquiring minds want to know.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 August 2013

sounds like fun .... some of my shooter buddies y i recently started plinking with old 30-06 sporters .... we have 3 guys with remmy 721, and i have a win 54, with a lyman peep although my eyes do better with the B&L Balvar.

a neat thing is that a couple of the guys are youngsters .... and they appreciate that these oldies still shoot very well .

ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 15 August 2013

Timely post ED:

I have had an old sporterized Springfield “03” for nearly 40 yrs. When I found it back then, some one had polished, blued and restocked it with a fairly heavy target style piece of maple. It still had the original bolt but there was a Redfield Olympic receiver sight on the rear and a covered ramp post on the front. And the knob on the rear of the striker had been taken off. All was nicely done. The bore looked like new.

It appeared to me that some one had set the rifle up for NRA high powered at one time. The old girl shot very well with jacketed reloads at the time. So I had a new bolt handle welded on, mounted a scope and restocked it again. After accounting for a couple of SD antelope, it has been idle since then.

Last summer, I loaded a few Lyman 314299's just for the fun of it and the results looked promising. So, as of a couple of weeks ago, the rifle is in pieces and laying beside a new unfinished and semi-inletted thumbhole stock. If all goes according to plan, there will be another “03” on the military line in the mod. scope class next season.

RD

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Little Debbie posted this 15 August 2013

Great subject. I've been shooting my 2nd generation M54 '06 for years with THE LOAD and a gas checked 308334 and averaging under 2 inches at a 100 yards. Mine has a Lyman apeture too and is my favorite bolt action rifle.

I'm interested in the velocity with Bullseye, I am assuming no fillers or other special techniques. I wish I had a .30 caliber non gas check mold.

Please keep us updated.

Matt

PS Ed what is the weight/shape of the NEI #63?

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

A gaschecked design can be used successfully without the gascheck in suitable loads, as long as the base band is of sufficient diameter to seal the throat.

We load the Bullseye straight up, standard primers and flash holes, no filler. Minimum charge to reliably exit barrel with lubricated cast bullet for “cat sneeze” load is 4 grains, about 700 fps. 7 grains is subsonic 1050 fps, the 8.4 grains I use is on the top end of plainbase, about 1300 fps.

More data here: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I mistyped the mold ID on the original post and have now corrected it. The bullet is NEI#69, weighs 160 grains in wheelweights, vs. 145 in linotype.

If interested, a current group buy going on over at Cast Boolits is for my design, being based on the original I had cut for nose pour back in Ruger days, but in a gang mold. See the larger sketch below.

More info at this link. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?206520-HM%B2-30-31-cal-160gr-6-CAV-Ed-Harris-Design

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 15 August 2013

Great idea for a new thread, Ed.

About ten years ago I bought a Newton #752 with I thought had a worn out barrel. Then I found out it was a Pope land designed without corners. The rifle had been restocked into a 1903 Springfield sporting blank but without being drilled for a scope or the bolt handle turned down. It still has the original Lyman 48 and no rear leaf  barrel sight.

The top group on the target below was shot with Lyman 311440 and 10 grains of Unique, as I was looking for a “rat load". That same day I have some left over rounds from the Military Nationals and tried them out. That is a nice 10 shot group thanks to the double set trigger. I wish the CBA had an old sporter with iron sight class for postals.

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

I would like to see a trial postal match in which entries would be permitted using original factory sporters, equipped with iron sights only, which otherwise meet the rules of the military modified iron sight class, not to shoot for awards against those using sporterized militaries, but for “high classic sporter” recognition in their own experimental category on the same course of fire, coinciding with the “military modified” iron sight category in the postals.

I would like to see it limited to “pre-1964 Classic Sporters” to permit standard Winchester Model 70s and such, but to eliminate Remington 788s, later Savages and others which rightfully belong in the production category.

Discussion?

If there is interest we could take it to the board and ask. It would be little more work for the postal match director, just more paid entries!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Heavy Metals 311-160-5 is supposed to be for the '06 with its .2+ inches of freebore?

What is the best design for an '06 if really outstanding accuracy is desired without a gascheck?

Have you seen my target shot with the Modern Bond 190 bullet in post #25 in this thread?:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=9648&forumid=57&page=2.

The only problem with the MB-190 is, it doesn't have a meplat for varminting but I'm starting to think I'm barking up the wrong tree with this design:

http://accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png

The bullet is seated to cover the 3 lower lube grooves. The top groove is there to break up the .2” long bearing surface... a debris groove, if you will.

I haven't ordered the mold yet... please provide input before I blow my dough.

LBD

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

This Heavy Metals bullet is my original design for the 7.62x39 which dates from 1985. It has proven (in the original NEI Melander molds) to shoot accurately in a variety of rifles and calibers.

Friends of mine and I have been using our old Melander molds for 25 years, and they are getting “tired,” so I sought new replacements to my original drawings, not tweaked the way the mold maker wanted to do it to make it look more like Ball ammo for marketing purposes, or a roundnose because people don't understand flat noses and won't buy them, so you have to have a round nose so they will look like “real bullets” and such nonsense.

Heavy Metal is also making a direct copy of the Lee C312-15-2R for those who want the spitzer shape for feeding in ARs. I don't do black rifles and want a flat nose to keep the CG closer to CP and to keep bullet length under 0.9 for low velocity stability in slower twist barrels. The 1/2 caliber meplat is enough to enhance small game performance, but no so large as to impair feeding when fired in the Garand in full loads.

Because current NEI quality isn't what it was when Walt was alive I worked with the Heavy Metal people to tweak the design to get back to my original prints, rather than copying the Lee design which had several changes to suit their manufacturing practice and for marketing.

A SAAMI .30-'06 sporting chamber does not, nor do pre-WW2 Springfield '03s have any freebore. Some factory sporters such as Remington do, because they use the same chamber in their sporting boltguns as in the pumps and autoloaders, which were freebored for the same reasons the Garand was.

Wartime 03A3 barrels have the same chamber as the M1 Garand, which DOES have a freebore to prevent any bullet interference with the origin of the rifling.

The NEI version of this bullet shoots well in either type of '06 chamber, as well as in Finnish 7.62x54Rs, Yugo and Russian SKS, and tight-bore .303s which can use a .312 bullet with GC crimped on in a .313-.314 die.

The intent of this design is recreational shooting in a variety of calibers and production rifles, not benchrest competition, although some people have used it successfully for that.

This bullet loaded without the GC with 8.4 grains of Bullseye has shot more accurately for me in .30-'06 sporting boltguns than any non-gascheck plainbased design I have tried. You don't need a plainbased bullet, but a GC bullet used without a GC must have a large enough base band to seal the throat, or it won't shoot for beans, most of the RCBS .30 cal. GC designs being prime examples.

For the group buy Heavy Metal says he can can custom cut larger diameters up to .318 with this tool for those who want to use it in the .303 British. The forepart will be correspondingly larger in diameter also.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote:A SAAMI .30-'06 sporting chamber does not, nor do pre-WW2 Springfield '03s have any freebore. Some factory sporters such as Remington do, because they use the same chamber in their sporting boltguns as in the pumps and autoloaders, which were freebored for the same reasons the Garand was. Well I guess we need to address a definition of terms before I can proceed.  What do you call the .22” long section of the chamber depicted below that tapers from .3106” to the commencement of the rifling?  I used to just call it the throat or leade until some old bench rest crank told me “freebore” can be either cone shaped or cylindrical... as long as it doesn't contain rifling.

LBD

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: You don't need a plainbased bullet, but a GC bullet used without a GC must have a large enough base band to seal the throat, or it won't shoot for beans, most of the RCBS .30 cal. GC designs being prime examples. I assume by “large enough", you're referring to diameter?... like .311-.312” for the '06?

Is there a minimum (or perhaps optimum) trailing band length?

Regarding 311-160-5:

What do you suppose the accuracy potential would be (from a pre-64 M70) if launched at 1300-1400 fps w/o a gascheck, using an appropriate alloy and lube, and a “shotgun” powder somewhat slower than Bullseye?

Can the punch on a #312 Lyman 450 die be modified so the bullet's gas check shank be inserted into it (i.e., a .284” diameter cup is cut into the top of the punch) thus preventing the shank from being lubed?  I'm not a machinist and unfortunately do not own a precision engine lathe.

LBD

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RicinYakima posted this 15 August 2013

I would shoot a “Classic Sporter” Iron sight match!

Pre-1964 manufactured barrel and action, any iron sight, shoulder to shoulder match, not postal match, Military Rifle Iron Sight rules. That would keep it in the right spirit, I think.

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

LBD wrote: Ed Harris wrote:A SAAMI .30-'06 sporting chamber does not, nor do pre-WW2 Springfield '03s have any freebore. Some factory sporters such as Remington do, because they use the same chamber in their sporting boltguns as in the pumps and autoloaders, which were freebored for the same reasons the Garand was. Well I guess we need to address a definition of terms before I can proceed.  What do you call the .22” long section of the chamber depicted below that tapers from .3106” to the commencement of the rifling?  I used to just call it the throat or leade until some old bench rest crank told me “freebore” can be either cone shaped or cylindrical... as long as it doesn't contain rifling.

LBD

That is not how the Mil-Std. for dimensioning small arms chambers describes it. A free-bore is a smooth cylindrical section. A conical transition of the ball seat at the origin of rifling is the forcing cone.

SAAMI and ANSI use similar terminology.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

RicinYakima wrote: I would shoot a “Classic Sporter” Iron sight match!

Pre-1964 manufactured barrel and action, any iron sight, shoulder to shoulder match, not postal match, Military Rifle Iron Sight rules. That would keep it in the right spirit, I think.

Ric Is the level of detail contained in my 2 posts above inappropriate for this thread?

LBD

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote:

"That is not how the Mil-Std. for dimensioning small arms chambers describes it. A free-bore is a smooth cylindrical section. A conical transition of the ball seat at the origin of rifling is the forcing cone."

Ed,

That's what I always thought too.  Then again, I always thought that the term “forcing cone” was reserved for revolvers.

OK, so my posts above should have “forcing cone” substituted for “freebore".

Is there a distinction between “ball seat", “leade", “throat” and “forcing cone” when these terms are applied to rifle chambers?  Please provide a link to the proper documentation if this level of detail is not appropriate for this thread.

LBD

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

LBD wrote:

Is there a minimum (or perhaps optimum) trailing band length?

Regarding 311-160-5:

What do you suppose the accuracy potential would be (from a pre-64 M70) if launched at 1300-1400 fps w/o a gascheck, using an appropriate alloy and lube, and a “shotgun” powder somewhat slower than Bullseye?

Can the punch on a #312 Lyman 450 die be modified so the bullet's gas check shank be inserted into it (i.e., a .284” diameter cup is cut into the top of the punch) thus preventing the shank from being lubed? 

I never worried about lube on the GC heel and don't wipe it off. The extra lube in the base helps. I do seat so that the heel is contained in the case neck.

A trailing bandof width 0.2 times bullet diameter is adequate if it fits. I shoot most of my non-GC bullets as-cast and unsized at. 312". Doing so I have found 1.5” or so average at 100 yards with a hunting scope attainable and if a load doesnt do 2 moa or better I know I can do better. I don't think the old classic rifles will do m.o.a. without glass bedding or other modern tweaks which I feel are out of character. I consider 4-5” ten-shot group at 200 yards fine shootingvwith these rifles, essentially tbe V ring on the old Army “A” target in use when these rifles were made.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

LBD wrote:

That's what I always thought too.  Then again, I always thought that the term “forcing cone” was reserved for revolvers.

OK, so my posts above should have “forcing cone” substituted for “freebore".

Is there a distinction between “leade", “throat” and “forcing cone” when the terms are applied to rifle chambers

Same thing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Thanks for the info Ed...

I guess I'm not in the correct arena here... I'm looking for varmint-level accuracy from an “old school” 30-'06 bolt gun topped with a 2x8 Leupold.

LBD

P.S. What's the definition of a ball seat?

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

Ball seat is the region ahead of the case mouth before the forcing cone starts. This may be a short cylindrical section, or simply that portion of the forcing cone which is larger than barrel groove diameter, before the rifling starts.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

LBD wrote: Thanks for the info Ed...

I guess I'm not in the correct arena here... I'm looking for varmint-level accuracy from an “old school” 30-'06 bolt gun topped with a 2x8 Leupold.

LBD

P.S. What's the definition of a ball seat?

One can always believe in miracles. You will get occasional sub- minute groups as part of the normal long run variation, but to average that over a series of 25 or more consecutive rounds, without excluding any data, I believe is unrealistic. But keep trying!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 15 August 2013

LBD,

Not a bit!

This same discussion comes up every three or four years when new folks come onto this board. Ed has convinced me to use SAMMI terms, so everyone can visualize what we are talking about.

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

Is the level of detail contained in my 2 posts above inappropriate for this thread?

LBD

Not at all! It adds to the clarity of discussion.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: "One can always believe in miracles. You will get occasional sub- minute groups as part of the normal long run variation, but to average that over a series of 25 or more consecutive rounds, without excluding any data, I believe is unrealistic. But keep trying!"

Ed,

Oh heck no, 25 rounds?... I'm not expecting that.  I'm not talking about making my '06 into a prairie dog rifle.  I'm looking for the ability to drop 10 rounds into a 1-1.25” circle at 100 yards.  I can already do that with gas checked bullets but now I'm trying to expand that capability to plain base bullets in the 1300-1500 fps neighborhood.  So far I've sort of (see 75 yard target included in post#25 of http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=9648&forumid=57&page=2) done it once with the Modern Bond 190.

BTW, is there no HTML editor on this forum?

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Ball seat is the region ahead of the case mouth before the forcing cone starts. This may be a short cylindrical section, or simply that portion of the forcing cone which is larger than barrel groove diameter, before the rifling starts. Ed,

Two questions for clarification:

So the “forcing cone” is the angle that transcends from groove diameter to the top of the rifling and the section before that (going back to the case mouth), regardless of it's geometry, is considered “ball seat"?

&

The cylindrical portion (assuming there is one) of the ball seat would be the “freebore"?

LBD

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CB posted this 15 August 2013

Ed, yer post brings back to mind the fun I've had with a 30 Remington Express in 30 REM caliber. It had a crude rear peep sight, sure made for fun lead plinking. Also an old model 14 Remington in 30 Remington. Another fun shooting 30 caliber is a Savage 99 in 300 Savage caliber and also an old model 8 Remington but it was a 25 Remington caliber, but all with old tang peep sights.

Any of the old 30 caliber rifles are a hoot to shoot, the levers, pumps, even self-loaders....Dan

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

LBD wrote: Ed Harris wrote: Ball seat is the region ahead of the case mouth before the forcing cone starts. This may be a short cylindrical section, or simply that portion of the forcing cone which is larger than barrel groove diameter, before the rifling starts. Ed,

Two questions for clarification:

So the “forcing cone” is the angle that transcends from groove diameter to the top of the rifling and the section before that (going back to the case mouth), regardless of it's geometry, is considered “ball seat"?

&

The cylindrical portion (assuming there is one) of the ball seat would be the “freebore"?

LBD

Correct!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 16 August 2013

I've had some luck with a un-checked Saeco #315 in a Winchester 94 30-30 over a moderate charge of Bullseye. Also surprising accuracy in a 91/30 7.62x54R with BE and a NOE copy of a Lyman 311408 ( I think). The .32 Mag bullet. The 30-30 will go minute of rabbit head out to 100 yards. Never shot the Russian plinker load past 50 yds. but it goes where it's pointed. I like Ric's term for these loads, “rat loads". I used to be a rat hunter. Back in the old days a guy could go shooting around here without attracting a lot of heat. Me and my buddies would hit the rice fields at night with Marlin 60s and 10-22s sporting 25 round mags and MagLites taped on top. Kind of like that old show 'Rat Patrol'.  Cruise down the levee roads in a pick-up, shooters firing over the cab at the rats running across the road in the headlights. The rats were plentiful, the cold drinks were too.

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LBD posted this 16 August 2013

tturner53 wrote: I've had some luck with a un-checked Saeco #315 in a Winchester 94 30-30 over a moderate charge of Bullseye. Also surprising accuracy in a 91/30 7.62x54R with BE and a NOE copy of a Lyman 311408 ( I think). The .32 Mag bullet. The 30-30 will go minute of rabbit head out to 100 yards. I'd be interested in the charge of Bullseye you're using.  Have you chronographed the load?

LBD

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Chargar posted this 16 August 2013

I like the idea, but have a question about “original". I have always wanted an NRA Sporter but never found one for a price I could afford. Therefore I built on of spare parts I had around the house. An SC 03A3 action and new SC barrel. It shoots good.

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RicinYakima posted this 16 August 2013

Well, the action was made before 1964 and if the barrel was, it should be OK. My issue is with guys that want to put on new $1000 benchrest barrels.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 August 2013

I agree with Ric, if assembled from original parts which were manufactured before 1964 and within the spirit of the rules it is allowed.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Chargar posted this 16 August 2013

Thanks guys, it is a gen-u-wine WWII Smith Corona barrel and action. All of the metal is original and I bought the Lyman 48 in 1964. The only new part is the wood.

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tturner53 posted this 16 August 2013

LBD wrote: tturner53 wrote: I've had some luck with a un-checked Saeco #315 in a Winchester 94 30-30 over a moderate charge of Bullseye. Also surprising accuracy in a 91/30 7.62x54R with BE and a NOE copy of a Lyman 311408 ( I think). The .32 Mag bullet. The 30-30 will go minute of rabbit head out to 100 yards. I'd be interested in the charge of Bullseye you're using.  Have you chronographed the load?

LBD I am a poor record keeper. Somewhere in the garage is a target with notes on it. I do recall it being a very light load, below 1,000 fps.

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LWesthoff posted this 17 August 2013

I'd be interested in this idea if it included a scope class (hunting type scope - maybe 6X max). I have an old Herter U9 (BSA action) that I bought around 50 years ago, mail order, back when the world was a bit better place than it seems to be, now. I toted it around for a while with the big fat stock and big long barrel, and then took it to a local gunsmith and had him cut it back to 21 inches. Then I began looking around for a semi inletted stock.....and couldn't find one. Worried about that for a while, until I realized the original stock would fill that bill just fine. Cut it down, slimmed it down, put a little checkering on it and glass bedded the action, and hunted with it for several years. So far, I haven't found any type of CBA competition it qualifies for.

Wes

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CB posted this 17 August 2013

Chargar wrote: I like the idea, but have a question about “original". I have always wanted an NRA Sporter but never found one for a price I could afford. Therefore I built on of spare parts I had around the house. An SC 03A3 action and new SC barrel. It shoots good.

Ooh, ah, my heart goes pitter-patter...love a sporter Springfield. Sporter mil-surps gotta be included! Is that a Redfield peep? I could always shoot better with the insert screwed out and just use the hole....Dan

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Ed Harris posted this 17 August 2013

Agree with peep. My latest acquisition picked up yesterday is ANOTHER Winchester 54 with Lyman 48 long slide peep which I had shipped to my local shop from Cabelas in Glendale, AZ. I deleted the Cabelas web pics and substituted new ones I took today.

Bore is bright and shiny, though shows slight wear, and the exterior has “character". This was obviously somebody's much used and cherished hunting rifle. My NOE #314299 and NEI #69 bullets, as seated for my Mauser engrave lightly upon chambering, like Eley Tenex in your favorite .22 match rifle. I have every hope that it will shoot as well as my OTHER Winchester 54 with plain open sights, whose groups are shown.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 17 August 2013

LBD wrote:Oh heck no, 25 rounds?... I'm not expecting that.  I'm not talking about making my '06 into a prairie dog rifle.  I'm looking for the ability to drop 10 rounds into a 1-1.25” circle at 100 yards.  I can already do that with gas checked bullets but now I'm trying to expand that capability to plain base bullets in the 1300-1500 fps neighborhood.....

THAT is a worthy goal.

It would be challenging, but should be possible.

Once you do it, everyone will want the recipe!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Little Debbie posted this 17 August 2013

Beautiful rifle. My is a near twin, wish I could figure how to post photographs so I could show mine off!

Matt

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LBD posted this 17 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: LBD wrote:Oh heck no, 25 rounds?... I'm not expecting that.  I'm not talking about making my '06 into a prairie dog rifle.  I'm looking for the ability to drop 10 rounds into a 1-1.25” circle at 100 yards.  I can already do that with gas checked bullets but now I'm trying to expand that capability to plain base bullets in the 1300-1500 fps neighborhood.....

THAT is a worthy goal.

It would be challenging, but should be possible.

Once you do it, everyone will want the recipe!

ED,

I think the highest hurdle is formulating the alloy (I already have the lube).  Once that is done, 12-13 grains of shotgun powder in roughly the GreenDot to BlueDot range should accomplish the goal.  Perhaps the second highest hurdle is matching bullet design to the chamber which may be slightly less difficult because one can “engineer” a fit more easily than fiddle with scrap alloys... which is why I wish more folks would participate in the rifle BHN thread.

LBD

P.S. That M54 is a beauty.

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Ed Harris posted this 17 August 2013

For plainbase bullets, wheelweights with 2% tin will work quite well. You can get away with a bit softer if below 1300 fps, but a stronger alloy helps above that, as long as the bullet fits.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 17 August 2013

Little Debbie wrote: Beautiful rifle. My is a near twin, wish I could figure how to post photographs so I could show mine off!

Matt

Looks like I am having trouble just posting text............my apologies. Here's a tutorial for the pics: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=2022&forum_id=33>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=2022&forumid=33

You can practice and ask for clarifications in the Testing Forum.

About the extra posts, the Webmaster can delete them; it's mike0841. You have to find one of his posts, click “PM” and ask him for the deletion. Try there: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=9617&forum_id=78>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=9617&forumid=78

...or maybe “Reporting” the posts would be easier for him... but the function doesn't seem to work.

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Little Debbie posted this 19 August 2013

Thanks to a helpful member I have learned to post photos.

A few of my M54

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Little Debbie posted this 20 August 2013

Hopefully a better photo.

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Little Debbie posted this 20 August 2013

Still figuring this out.

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Little Debbie posted this 20 August 2013

Hmmm

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Ed Harris posted this 20 August 2013

Absolutely! A beautiful twin.

Too bad we can't breed them!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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cityboy posted this 20 August 2013

This is the most interesting thread I have seen. It brings back good memories. I had 3 03A3 but had to sell them and all of my stuff thanks to age-related health problems. It's hell getting old but don't know of a good alternative.

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LBD posted this 20 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Absolutely! A beautiful twin.

Too bad we can't breed them! Breeding twins?? Who knows what that would spawn... might even be a push-feed action with a flat breech face. :puke:

.> LBD

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delmarskid1 posted this 21 August 2013

I have a sporter 1911 Schmidt Rubin. Some one made a roll over stock and put a Cutt's compensator on it. The sights are a ramp and bead on the front and some kind of peep on the back. The stock is gross of course but it is very comfortable. I like the older Schmidt Rubins a lot. The sights are farther from my eye and the chamber throats are longer and easier to work with.

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Little Debbie posted this 21 August 2013

Breeding M54s...........I would hope the off spring would be a .30 WCF, but I'd settle for a 7x57

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2013

Little Debbie wrote: Breeding M54s...........I would hope the off spring would be a .30o WCF, but I'd settle for a 7x57

.30 caliber is the dominant gene...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 August 2013

LBD: in the 50+ years i have been casting/shooting casterbated bullets, i have solved the accuracy equation a thousand times ... i can now get about 1.5 to 2.5 moa from most good rifles.

about where i started ....

reminds me of the guy who has quit smoking ... a thousand times ...

my best trick is just move the bean cans closer ...

ken

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Little Debbie posted this 22 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Little Debbie wrote: Breeding M54s...........I would hope the off spring would be a .30o WCF, but I'd settle for a 7x57

.30 caliber is the dominant gene...

But I'd love the little metric b%#€rd just like it was a .30!

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LBD posted this 22 August 2013

Have you ever owned a 7x57?

The only way I would spend time with a 7x57 was to start with a custom reamer with much tighter tolerances.  Here's a SAAMI drawing of the lil' red-headed step-child:

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2013

I would agree that any .30 caliber seems a more obedient child than the dependent European which needs constant coddling and reassurance, but then throws tantrums at random just for spite!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Little Debbie posted this 22 August 2013

LBD

Yes I have owned several including a Ruger 77 that was the least accurate bolt gun I've ever shot (sorry Ed) rebarreled it to .257 Roberts and cured the issues. In my youth I have sporterized (butchered) a couple of Spanish Mausers. I currently own a push feed Winchester M70 FWT 7x57. The Spanish rifles and the M70 shoot best with 160 and 175 gr bullets. The M70 shoots 139 grain Hornady bullets okay in my rifle as long as I seat them to just clear the magazine box and feed. Very light loads with light cast (Lyman 287442) do okay for 50 yard groups, but it needs a heavy cast bullet (Lyman 287405) to get any accuracy at 1600-1800 fps.

Molds are shown below

Matt

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Little Debbie posted this 22 August 2013

You have to admit that the Euro Trash/Latin breeding does keep things interersting.

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Ed Harris posted this 23 August 2013

Getting back to serious business, here are examples of how cast bullets seated in .30-'06 brass fit in the chamber of my Winchester 54:

Top bullet is an old Walt Melander copy of Ideal #308403. Hard fit of top band into rifling requires careful adjustment of seating depth and snug neck tension to prevent rounds telescoping into case.

Middle bullet is my design for the 7.62x39, NEI #69, which as you can see fits the standard .30-'06 throat perfectly, being well engraved, but not requiring hard chambering force. Just like Eley Tenex in your favorite match rifle.

Bottom bullet is NOE version of #311299, typical of 2-diameter bore riders, top driving band here sized .312” is hard fit in .3114” throat. Cylindrical bore riding nose on this example is .303” and gets good guidance from lands once it gets past the origin of rifling, but in this worn barrel it barely wipes the lube film off at the throat, whereas hard driving band fit precludes seating it out farther unless bullet is sized below throat diameter. I will try these again sized “311” after checking actual diameters of several dies I have to find one which yields bullets not smaller than .3110” and not larger than .3115"

They all shoot under 2” average for five consecutive 5-shot groups at 100 yards from my scoped Mauser hunting rifle, but, guess which one shoots best?

Pope style averaged 1.80” with largest group 2.2” and smallest 1.4"

NEI #69 averaged 1.56” with largest group 2.1” and smallest 1.09"

311299 averaged 1.86” with largest group 2.3” and smallest 1.5"

All with 8.4 grs. of Bullseye!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 25 August 2013

Here are some photos of the old Cal. .30 Ball M1 ammo I got with the first Winchester 54, and which I plan on shooting up to get the empties. I think it would be cool to use FA34 brass in two old boltguns which were also made in 1934. At least it will make it easy to keep the brass separate from that for my other rifles. I have a case of the stuff! After decapping, washing in soap and water, and swaging the primer pocket, the brass seems as good as Norma or Lapua, having that nice reddish pink color, and trimmings coming off as long fuzzy strands instead of granular chips.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Wineman posted this 25 August 2013

My Ruger 77 from the mid 1970's shot the Hornaday 175 RN pretty well. The 140-160 grain range were not such good performers. I remember shooting against a Spanish 93 with irons and mine was a scope only model. I was getting whipped pretty good using 140 grain Speer.

Dave

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Ed Harris posted this 26 August 2013

From what I remember the Ruger 7x57s had long throats which favored the 175-grain bullets. I never fooled with the 7mm much,but have always loved the '06.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Little Debbie posted this 26 August 2013

I have two molds that I think will work for this. First is an RCBS 30-150-SP that casts a little small with anything by Linotype and after digging through my stuff I found an Ideal 308241 plain base single cavity mold. I'd never cast with this mold before so was curious. My mix was 1/2 bulllet trap recovery which is a mix of L:inotype, .22 RF, and some jacketed handgun bullets and 1/2 cable sheathing. Fairly soft which I beleive is the goal.

The photo attached shows the as cast dimesnsions of the bullets.

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Little Debbie posted this 26 August 2013

I made up some dummy rounds to check for a seating length that will engrave the bullet as described by Ed. My question is how deep should the bullets engage the rifling? In the following photos showing the engraving on these two bullets, there is plenty of feel, but the bullets do no telescope into the case and do not get pulled out of the case when ejected. Should I be looking for less engraving or stay with the seating depth as it is now? My 45-45-10 tumble lube should be dry this afternoon so I can start shooting the M54..

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Little Debbie posted this 26 August 2013

The Ideal 308241

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mckg posted this 27 August 2013

LD, have you tried beagling that RCBS mold? http://castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Beagling.pdf

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Ed Harris posted this 27 August 2013

If loaded round neither telescopes in chambering, nor debullets upon extraction, bolt closure does not require heavy force, but you can feel some resistance, and see some engraving on an extracted round, that is enough.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Little Debbie posted this 27 August 2013

mckg,

I normally use Linotype and a gas check with the RCBS 30-150-SP, sized at .311. It worked well in the rifles I've shot it through. I've never measured the bands before this project. I'm hoping one of these bullets will work under the parameters set: as cast, tumble lubed , Bullseye, and a Pre War bolt action sporter with iron sights.

I have Beagled a couple of Lyman .25 molds to get them to shoot, but really hope it isn't necessary for this.

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Rich/WIS posted this 27 August 2013

There was a mention of Blue Dot in one post. Have about 5 # of it and can't find any cast data for06 or 243. Anyone have any load data?

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tturner53 posted this 28 August 2013

FWIW, my burn rate chart shows Blue Dot being slightly faster than A2400. If it was me I'd start out using A2400 starting loads. With 5 lbs. you should be set for a while.

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Little Debbie posted this 28 August 2013

I thought this was going to be easier. Group is 20 rounds at 50 yards, all I have at home.

Ideal 308241 as cast, 155 grain, 45-45-10 tumble lube. 7.4 grains Bullseye WLR Primer.

There was more “feel” when chambering than I was really comfortable so I'll adjust seating depth next. The biggest issue was leading. This rifle does not lead with anything else. I'll see how tough removing it is.

The good news is that this load appears to be subsonic and the bullets are stable, they just don't group.

Any suggestions are welcome.

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fa38 posted this 28 August 2013

A rifle that I used leaded the barrel every time I shot it with tumble lube bullets.  I went back to my homebrew run through a lube sizer and no more leading with that bullet in that rifle.

Other rifles shot fine with tumble lube.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 August 2013

Here are some ten-shot, 100 yard groups which Dick Nearing shot today with Lyman double-aperture IRON SIGHTS from his old NM '03 Springfield. He certainly has bragging rights!

These NEI #69s were cast of WW, loaded in GI M2 Ball cases with Remington 9-1/2 primers, as-cast and unsized, tumbled in LLA. 50 rounds continuous with each load NO leading.

The 6 grain Bullseye load is about 900 fps, the 8.5 grain WST load is about 1080, as a guess, but I haven't chronographed it. Seems about 10% slower than Bullseye for the same charge weight, and bulkier, the Little Dandy rotor #17 which throws 9 grains of BE throws 8.5 of WST on my measure. No filler either in these loads and no attempt to orient the powder, just load'em and shoot'em!

If anybody wants to know, Dick is an old Bullseye pistol shooter and we've been brainwashing him into shooting cast in his rifles, so we've won a convert. He's retired, in his 70s and having a great time. Targets here are Standard American 25-yard timed and rapid fire pistol repair centers because that's what he's got!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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AceWarriorJr. posted this 09 September 2013

Maybe not strictly on topic.but cannot pass a chance to talk up some of my own old school boltguns: 2 Model 54 30/30s(one each rifle and carbine) a Sav. super sporter(mod 45),and a RemingtonLee 100 % Orig.,also in 30/30.. the 54's.not surprisingly are the closet shooters,and,the rifle actually would outshoot my old Rem.788 30/30 that some youngster paid me WAY TOO MUCH for... Ace

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

Please post a picture of the Remington Lee!

Here's a bench view of my 54 '06 looking over the pond at my neighbor's backyard range.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Wineman posted this 10 September 2013

I too did not shoot the 7x57 much. I have always had a thing for calibers that should be more popular. My college roommate got me Ruger & His Guns book for my birthday last year. A great piece. It is hard to believe that one person was able to build the empire that it is today, and do it using totally new techniques and materials (had help I'm sure). One of my favorite memories as a young lad was shooting a Ruger MK1 with a bull barrel. My daughter's first handgun experience was also with a MK1 Bull Barrel (not the same one) the Tturner had.

Dave

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cityboy posted this 10 September 2013

Ed Is that an Oehler Mod 33 chronograph? I used one for years and was very satisfied with it. You picture brings back pleasant memories.

Jim

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Ed Harris posted this 10 September 2013

Yes.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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.22-10-45 posted this 13 September 2013

I like Ed's idea of a postal match for these iron sighted sporters.  Would calibers other than .30 be permitted?   Speaking of old school..I have an original Winchester-Lee straight-pull sporting rifle  (6mm Lee-Navy)  that likes Ideal 245498 over 10.0 grs. TrailBoss.  Shoots to P.O.A. & groups in 3/4” at 50yds.   Out at 100yds. grouping around 2 1/4".  I have to use the Merit adj. eyeglass diopter nowdays to use open irons!

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Ed Harris posted this 13 September 2013

My thought process was for any legal “deer rifle.” So your 6mm Lee Navy or .250 Savage would be fine, but a .22 Hornet, .25-20 or .32-20 would not.

For now I would ask people simply to post photos of groups of ten shots or more, fired at 100 yards, give info on the rifle and load data. Use either a hunting scope not to exceed 6X or iron sights.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bob S posted this 13 September 2013

Not a sporter, but a barrel of fun to shoot reduced range XTC with cast bullets:

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Bob S posted this 13 September 2013

This from one of them thar “Alpine Sporters” from the early 60's: a Schmidt-Rubin 96/11 “sporterized” by shortening the barrel, rebreeching and rechambering to .308 Winchester:

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Bob S posted this 13 September 2013

Ed,

You asked for pix of someone's Remington-Lee. FWIW,Here's mine. This isn;t sporter, either, M1885 Navy rifle, 45-70:

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RicinYakima posted this 13 September 2013

Glad to see you are still with us, Bob! What model of Winchester is that with a marksman stock and sporter weight barrel? Ric

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

Hi Ric,

I have net yet been consigned to The Deep. :D

The Winchester is a National Match, made in 1950. That was a very good year! :cool:

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RicinYakima posted this 14 September 2013

Thanks Bob,

One of the regrets of my life was being in a flea-den gun shop and looking at a 1950's Target .257 Roberts. I set it down on the counter and told the owner I would think about it. A guy I hadn't seen come in picked it up, said “I'll take it!” and laid out 5 hundreds. This was less than 10 years ago, and I learned my lesson, as it was a 95% rifle. You don't' have it get it for the bottom price, just a fair price. Even from a flea-den that didn't know what they had.

Ric

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hporter posted this 14 September 2013

Ed,

May I ask what charge of Bullseye you used in the group photographed in your post #79 (the tape measure obscures the writing)? I bought the same mold and I am curious to try Bullseye with it in my 1903A3.

Harold

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

Any charge of Bullseye in the '06 from 5 to 8 grains seems to work well. Individual rifles vary as to where their “sweet spot” is. If you don't have time for a bunch of experimentation the 6 grain subsonic load works well in all rifles in which I have tried it. The next “cluster bump” seems to occur about 1300 fps in the range of 7.8-8.4 grs. of Bullseye. We only tried one charge with WST, but 8.5 grains shot some amazing groups in Dick Nearing's M1903 NM rifle.

A charge of 6 grains of Bullseye in my Winchester 54 gives 1087 fps and shot the nice 20-shot group you see. 5.5 at 1027 fps was nearly as good.

With unsized bullets and adequate lubrication, light tumble all over with LLA, then fill the lube and crimp grooves with NRA 50-50 in .313 die without touching bands, as much as 9 grains of Bullseye, approaching 1400 fps, worked without the GC in my scoped Mauser sporter over 50 rounds in a continuous series without cleaning to average under 2” for ten 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

This “.32-40 equivalent” load with 160-gr. flatnosed bullet approaching 1400 fps is going to get tried on deer this fall if I can get a shot up close within 50 yards or so.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

Bob,

Lovely old Model 70. I was online looking for a Model 70 '06 with clip slot when I stumbled across my second Model 54. But if I found a clone of yours I sure would be sorely tempted!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

I UPDATED MY ORIGINAL POST TO DEFINE THE “OLD SCHOOL” BOLTGUN CONCEPT.

My thought is that American “Old School” boltguns ended with the demise of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70. This materialized in the widespread marketing of plunger ejector rifles, which were no longer “Controlled Round” feed, in which the cartridge is guided under the extractor hook as it is stripped from the magazine.

Sporterized militaries are great, as long they are based on “old school” classic boltguns. If somebody has a push-feeder made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

This thread is strictly nonofficial and we shall be tolerant of all nationalities and denominations. 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I UPDATED MY ORIGINAL POST TO DEFINE THE “OLD SCHOOL” BOLTGUN CONCEPT.

If somebody has a push-feeder made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

This one will NOT be fired. It was one of my SECNAV Trophy Rifles. I won two 720 and still regret to this day that I sold one of them.

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I was online looking for a Model 70 '06 with clip slot when I stumbled across my second Model 54.

About 35 years ago when I was in Mass. a good friend stumbled into a Model 54 Sniper. It shot like a dream with anything you put through it, from very light castloads to 190 grain SMK's for the long lines. The only problem was that someone had put an after market trigger in it ... and as you know, the factory sear is also the bolt stop ... so the bolt would just slide out. Made it sort of awkward for rapid fire.

I am still searching for my first Model 54 .....

Resp'y, Bob S.

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Thanks Bob,

One of the regrets of my life was being in a flea-den gun shop and looking at a 1950's Target .257 Roberts. I set it down on the counter and told the owner I would think about it. A guy I hadn't seen come in picked it up, said “I'll take it!” and laid out 5 hundreds. This was less than 10 years ago, and I learned my lesson, as it was a 95% rifle. You don't' have it get it for the bottom price, just a fair price. Even from a flea-den that didn't know what they had.

Ric

Ric,

I would be kicking myself in that situation, too! ;)

A Remington 722 in 257 is on my bucket list. (not even in the same league as a Model 70 Target!) I almost ordered one last night, but opted for the .30 cal 721 instead. I do have an old Ruger 77 (NOT the MkII) in 257 that I have not yet fired. I have an old intriguing Herter's mould that I am eager to try with it.

Resp'y, Bob S.

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

The SecNav Trophy Rifles are rare collectibles. I was told by the late Tom Sharp of Remington that when WW2 broke out that their entire inventory of .30-'06 rifles was turned over to the government for potential issue to defense plant guards, etc. There were adequate M1917s and other rifles to serve that purpose, so the 720s were sat aside and ended up at NWSC Crane, IN. Maj. Kam Hayden, USMC and VAdm. Lloyd M. Mustin, USN, prevented their being scrapped as surplus property and thus started the SecNav Trophy presentations.

This following info comes from the NRA Museum web site:

The Remington Model 720 bolt action rifle, intended to compete with Winchester's popular Model 70, was produced in limited numbers until Second World War military requirements forced its discontinuation. Even some knowledgeable collectors and firearms historians may not be familiar with these rifles. Introduced by Remington in mid- to late-1941, the Model 720 was billed as an improvement over its predecessor, the Model 30S. The Ilion, New York arms maker offered these in .270 Winchester and .257 Roberts chamberings, as well as in .30-Ô06; and with barrel lengths of 20-, 22-, and 24 inches.

Other features included a semi-beavertail stock with checkered pistol grip and fore end; checkered steel butt plate; hinged floor plate; swept-back bolt handle, and speed-lock firing pin which cocked on the opening of the bolt. Remington intended to phase out the Model 30 shortly after this new design hit the market, but the Pearl Harbor attack and the subsequent U.S. entry into the

Second World War threw a wrench into Remington's plans. Production of the 720 was soon discontinued as military ordnance contracts for the Model 1903A1 and the later M1903A3 took over the company's production line. Following are serial numbers and production totals by year for the Model 720: Year Serial Numbers Production Total 1941 40000 - 40427 427 1942 40428 - 41449 1,022 1943 41450 - 42422 973 1944 42423 - 42427 5 _ 2,427 Eventually, existing Model 720 inventories in .30-Ô06 caliber, as well as various incomplete sub-assemblies, were “drafted” into military service by the U.S. Navy. These rifles are easily distinguished by the “crossed cannon” Ordnance proof mark and inspector's cartouche on the stock. These rifles would never see combat service; instead, they spent the war in storage at the Navy's Crane, Indiana Ammunition Depot.

There they would remain, until an order for their destruction as surplus property was issued in 1963. Fortunately, Major Kam Hayden, U.S.M.C., who had just finished a tour as commander of the Marine Corps Marksmanship Training Unit at Quantico, Virginia, heard about the proposal to destroy these rifles. Maj. Hayden suggested that they be awarded as trophies to top Navy and Marine Corps competitive shooters.

This plan was approved, and beginning in 1964, the Model 720 was designated as the “Secretary of the Navy Trophy.” A few rifles exhibited ill-effects from their long storage and were subsequently used as a source of parts, while the remaining inventory was divided between the Navy and Marine Corps to be awarded to winners at the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio, and at various divisional and inter-service matches. Presented in their original shipping cartons, these Secretary of the Navy trophy rifles feature an engraved magazine floorplate identifying the competition for which they were awarded. Some shooters won as many as seven of these rare trophies before steps were taken to limit the awarding of a rifle.

Of the approximately 2,500 Model 720s manufactured, the .30-Ô06 variant accounts for all but about 100 of those produced. A very few were purchased through commercial outlets before remaining stocks were obtained by the Navy. Of those, only a very few remain to be awarded to Navy and Marine Corps shooters. A “rare bird” from its early days, the Model 720 has become cherished as a symbol of marksmanship superiority as well as a fine presentation-grade rifle.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Chargar posted this 14 September 2013

OK..I will play with this rifle. I rescued it from a Corpus Christi pawnshop about 6 years ago for $450.00. I had the old Weaver K3 at the house. Caliber is 30-06 of course. It was made in 1954. I cleaned and decoppered the barrel but have never fired it. Bore looks to be perfect. About time this old girl goes to work.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

OK, here are results of today's testing in my scoped Mauser .30-'06 Sporter, sixty shots continuous without cleaning: four ten-shot groups plus one 20-shot group which includes a “weather report” since the wind caught me on the first ten shots and spoiled the group, so I repeated another ten rounds on top of the first ten. Nothing excluded, the results speak for themselves.

2” ten shot groups at 100 yards, with hunting weight rifle, hunting scope, bullets cast from a gang mold, GI ball cases, Remington 9-1/2 primers, measured charges of 8.4 grains Bullseye, bullets from wheelweights, as-cast, unsized, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, no filler, no attempt whatever to orient the powder charge, shove'em in, and bang each 5 rounds off from the magazine in about 30 seconds, reload, repeat. Wait 5 minutes between each rapid-fire group, except for the group of 20, in which case I fired double strings from sandbags, back to back with the last ten from a hot barrel, letting the wind to blow the heat mirage out of the scope as if repelling a charging horde of bunny wabbits! 19 of 20 shots under 3", the flier opening the 20 shot group to about 4". This is reality.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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badgeredd posted this 16 September 2013

Ed,

You've convinced me to get going on my '06 sporters. I have 2 17 Enfields (Winchester manufacture) and a low number 03 that I've not messed with because of other project rifles. For the most part I tend to try to duplicate original ball loads with cast bullets, mainly to see if I can. Since I have 2 grandsons that are really taking an interest in shooting, it seems appropriate to work up some loads for their amusement (as well as mine). Thanks for the information and the JT Knives group buy design.

Edd

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

For the low noise and low recoil, as light as 6 grains of Bullseye works well, is accurate enough for a training load and is also subsonic, 1087 fps from my Winchester 54.

The two “sweet spots” we've observed firing a group of four '03s, one Mauser and two Winchester 54s is either subsonic, using 6 grains of Bullseye, otherwise avoiding charges above 6 grains of Bullseye until you get to up 7.8, because 100-yard groups enlarge slightly, due to transonic buffeting with those loads as they go subsonic before 100 yards, then at 7.8 of Bullseye or 8.5 of WST the groups tighten nicely again and remain very good all the way up to 9 grains of Bullseye in a smooth barrel. That is maximum, because above that you will get leading if shooting without the GC.

Eye candy, the four 03s:

Front, NRA Sporter Next, M1903 NM with Lyman sights and “C” stock Third, 1942 USMC Unertl Sniper Last Remington 03A4

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2013

Nice Springfields! How is your Unertl holding up? I went through 3, lens separations from recoil/low humidity, over the last 20 years. Now I am using a little 4 power Fecker that seems to be holding up. Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

Not my Unertl, the '03s all belong to Dennis Carlini. Dick Thomas rebuilt the 8X some years ago.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid1 posted this 17 September 2013

THAT is what I like to see! Burn 'em up and go look at the targets. I'm not having as much luck with the plain base bullets but I'm going to keep trying.

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RicinYakima posted this 17 September 2013

Nice group of Springfields. One thing I have learned from living in the desert for the last 37 years: it is hell on old scopes and wood stocks.

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Bob S posted this 10 October 2013

See the Remington 721 thread ...... :D

Resp'y, Bob S.

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fRANK46 posted this 12 November 2013

After reading these posts, kinda want to put a new/old mauser bull barrel on my 54 win action made in 1928 and set up for the 30-30 cartridge. Bought the barreled action many years ago from Logan Arms in Brooklyn NY. Barrel was a coal mine. Do have a old win marksman stock and would need some tweaking with the inletting. Have had all the parts sitting around for years. May just be the time to get them all together. The bull bbl for the mauser is chambered in 308 and threaded for the 98 mauser. You'd probably laugh if I told you what all of the above cost years ago. $75 for the 54 win bbld action, $25 for the stock,and $5 for the barrel. Hava a good laugh on me.Frank

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RicinYakima posted this 12 November 2013

You paid $75 for a barreled action! You are a big spender! Frank, we are not getting younger. Put the rifle together and have fun shooting it. Ric

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fRANK46 posted this 10 May 2014

Big spender nope I don't think so. Back when I lived on Long Island NY, I used to haunt most of the gun shops back from the 80's till late 1995 when I moved to Louisiana. Seems me and the wife didn't want to spend our golden years shoveling snow. Which many of the folks up that way did a lot of this past winter. I bought the 54 win bbld action like I said for $75, than a few years later here in Louisiana came upon the semi reworked marksman stock. The barrel I already had. Over the years I've been sort of like a pack rat when it comes to spare parts. From Texas,Pennsylvania and of course New york find some little widgit I couldn't live without. I guess many of us have done the same over the years. Still looking for the steel lyman 57 sme I put away for safekeeping. well its so put away frequent searches have turned up nada. Thanks for listening to my rant. Frank

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M3 Mitch posted this 06 November 2015

One of my best shooters is a 1948 Model 70 in 30-06. I found a good old Lyman 48 peep sight and installed. Minute of beer can out to about 80 yards, shooting offhand. Most common plinking load is a 3118 cast from a 4-cavity mold, backed by a light charge of 2400, or Unique.

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gpidaho posted this 06 November 2015

As sporters go, I'm so proud of the Mauser that corerf sold me. You've all seen the pictures when it was up for sale here. The rifle has been changed to the sporter configuration(very professionally) It's been fired but if it's more than just proofing it doesn't show. All numbers match and all markings are sharp and clear. Thanks Mike for a truly great old rifle. Gp

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