Help Identify this old RB match Rifle

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  • Last Post 03 September 2013
linoww posted this 31 August 2013

Not original sights back-lock hook breech 57 cal deep cut perfect shape ( rebore?) barrel refinished/holes filled  and in the white 1-70 “ish” twist 36” 1.25” across the flats False muzzle freaking heavy and not an offhand gun I have Roberts book and Rifleman's back to the 30's and some  are close but not exact. So far i haven't found a combo that shoots well but i have l had it out only three times. Came with a 55 cal(.552) HG RB Mold and 56 cal (.558) Unk nice Mold.A 570 ball is too tight.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 31 August 2013

full shot of rifle

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 31 August 2013

ft and back views

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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nimrod posted this 31 August 2013

I don't have any idea who might have made it but it does look great. It looks like some really deep rifling on the end of the false muzzle does the false muzzle have any taper? As deep as the rifling appears it would take some really thick patching to seal the barrel guessing at least .020 maybe .024 and a bigger hammer to start it. Sounds like you need a .565 ball you would probably have to go to a custom mold maker to get one of course. Jeff Tanner in England makes custom round ball molds fast service and very reasonable from what I have read. As I understand it his molds don't have a sprue cutter you have do that by hand.

RB

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 August 2013

ken likes this rifle

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linoww posted this 31 August 2013

i had a .595 Tanner mold and wasn't happy with it.Quality and service from him was good but it didn't cast well and it was hard to get bsalld without voids.I Paid $85 on Ebay for a rare Lyman .595 and sold the Tanner.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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nimrod posted this 31 August 2013

Well if you get bored with it send it my way I'll babysit it a while.

Just wonder if someone draw filed the barrel or is that the original finish?

Petersoli has a .562 round ball mold might be a problem to get though. There is a new mold maker on the horizon named Moose molds and they will make round ball molds that's about all that I know about them.

RB

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linoww posted this 31 August 2013

no, the barrel was draw filed or machined over the flats once some of the filler repairs were done.I have a borrowed Ideal .562 that only casts .557 and one i just got that casts .558.Maybe I'll “Beagle” it (kidding)

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 31 August 2013

George you might be able to get some .565 balls to try out from Smiling Fox Forge. I know it's totally against your Scottish disposition to actually BUY ready made round balls but it'd be cheaper than chasing moulds that don't work. Also wasn't the guy from Heavy Metal Moulds talking about making custom round ball moulds a while back?

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Pigslayer posted this 31 August 2013

Heavy Metal Molds was in fact stating that he could make about any round ball mold needed. E-mail is [email protected]

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 01 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww

If you decide barrel finish, Birchwood Casey Plum Brown would do well. I have had great success with it after evenly heating barrels slowly with a torch till they sizzle water and apply liquid plentifully with cheesecloth then just follow with a file card brush when you get scale. If you heated correctly you should keep reapplying to get about 5 coats and carding from one heat cycle. I do 2-4 heat cycles and color is very very deep. Simple for an old authentic finish and much more rust resistant than any modern blue.

Gary

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John Grantham posted this 01 September 2013

linoww wrote: Not original sights

back-lock

hook breech

57 cal deep cut perfect shape ( rebore?)

barrel refinished/holes filled  and in the white

1-70 “ish” twist 36” 1.25” across the flats

False muzzle

freaking heavy and not an offhand gun

I have Roberts book and Rifleman's back to the 30's and some  are close but not exact.

So far i haven't found a combo that shoots well but i have l had it out only three times.

Came with a 55 cal(.552) HG RB Mold and 56 cal (.558) Unk nice Mold.A 570 ball is too tight.

Contact Steve Garbe in Cody Wy. The people at Wyoming Armory will be able to put you in touch. Steve is very knowledgeable of vintage target rifles.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 September 2013

What a beautiful rifle..

The sights are  more modern Ideal or Lyman.

The hard work is dicovering what kind of load he likes best.

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AWOL posted this 01 September 2013

Nice rifle! Really good shape though it's too bad the patina was taken of the barrel. I'm thinking New York State, mid to late 1800's. The trigger guard style is a NY style, and they used german silver there often. Can't tell if the stock has been refinished. Could be from other places too, of course, as at that time gunsmiths moved around. Any name on the bottom barrel flat, hidden by the stock?

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onondaga posted this 01 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww

The particular type of false muzzle with very deep rifling and angled starts to the grooves  on your rifle indicates the false muzzle is designed for a particular type paper patching for bullets or round balls called STRIP PATCHING.

Here is a drawing from , “The Paper Patch” by Paul Matthews, page 71. This shows a similar false muzzle, although yours has more grooves. It is possible  you have a false muzzle designed for strip patches or some other equally obscure novel loading technique:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9010008_zps456963c0.jpg.html>

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linoww posted this 02 September 2013

Strip patching was typically for conicals.This is  1-72 RB gun.Roberts book has quite bit on this.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 02 September 2013

I have used the.552 ball and denim but it didn't shoot well.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2013

Try the thickest lubricated denim you can possibly load .  It should nearly take 2 hands to get down after starting. Then you have a good fit!!!

That looks like a removable starting false muzzle that is keyed with pins. Is that so?

Gary

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linoww posted this 02 September 2013

onondaga wrote: Try the thickest lubricated denim you can possibly load .  It should nearly take 2 hands to get down after starting. Then you have a good fit!!!

That looks like a removable starting false muzzle that is keyed with pins. Is that so?

Gary

I had a bit of success today.i found a mold in my box that cast .560.With a .015 patch and 70g of FF Goex quite a few groups were under 2” at 50 yards.While this is not good at all.it is better than the 3” an over groups i was getting before.Now i will try to go with a thicker path or add a wool wad of some sort.

 "true” false muzzles are aligned with pins in the barrel.They were fitted before the gun was rifled.

I got some Birchwood Casey Plum Brown today you recommended.if it doesn't work i am holding  you responsible<G>

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww

 The Birchwood Casey Plumb Brown does a beautiful job. The quality of the browning is very dependent on the finish of the metal before you start. I used 3 progressive draw files then 3 progressive sandings with emery cloth wrapped around a file down to 360 grit.    Make sure barrel is completely de-greased handle with clean gloves and leave  no fingerprints. Then work with the barrel supported on a steel or aluminum rod in a vice to begin work . You need to be able to rotate the barrel while working  Heat evenly with a torch and take your time warming to get it even. Hot spots will be darker if you don't let the heat dissipate and spread evenly so the whole thing is hot enough to really sizzle water anywhere..I'll  post a pic here of a barrel I did with the stuff 30 years ago on a CVA kit Mountain rifle!

Barrel color looks truest in last picture with the pewter nose cap: http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9020012_zps3801f5e5.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9020011_zps4948765a.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9020010_zpsa1a2b871.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9020013_zpsbc6433e2.jpg.html>

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John Grantham posted this 02 September 2013

I have a rifle similar to yours. It's a 53 bore 72 twist barrel. Mine has pins in the flats, 1/2 inch or so from the muzzle, to attach a press mechanism to start the patched ball through the false muzzle. A .540 ball and a .020 patch works great over 160 grs. of 2f swiss. Yours doesn't have the pins so use as tight of fit as you can and still load the gun. If the barrel is typical it should have a slight choke. Once you get the ball past the choke it should seat easily. Mine groups best with tephlon coated patches. If your are a purest use some sort of fish oil for a lube. Don't be afraid to put the powder to it. You'll be surprized how well it will shoot when you find the right combination. I have my own ideas of barrel finish. A rust brown would be more appropriate for this gun. It is done without heating the barrel and if it is done correctly according to instructions rust brown will leave a far better looking product for a vintage rifle than BC Plum Brown.

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2013

I've done rust brown. It is properly done with saturated salt water and takes months of rusting and carding cycles. It is much paler than plumb brown at it's best and then there is a proclivity to pitting that continues for the life of the barrel. Browning leaves a progressive rust that repeatedly needs neutralizing to arrest. Plum browning only needs to be neutralized once with water and oil. Johnson's paste wax is an excellent protector-ant for either brown or plumb brown. Mine, in the picture was waxed with Johnson's about 2 months ago and has been fired 20 times and cleaned but not re- waxed since..

Gary

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nimrod posted this 02 September 2013

John Grantham wrote: I have a rifle similar to yours. It's a 53 bore 72 twist barrel. Mine has pins in the flats, 1/2 inch or so from the muzzle, to attach a press mechanism to start the patched ball through the false muzzle. A .540 ball and a .020 patch works great over 160 grs. of 2f swiss. Yours doesn't have the pins so use as tight of fit as you can and still load the gun. If the barrel is typical it should have a slight choke. Once you get the ball past the choke it should seat easily. Mine groups best with tephlon coated patches. If your are a purest use some sort of fish oil for a lube. Don't be afraid to put the powder to it. You'll be surprized how well it will shoot when you find the right combination. I have my own ideas of barrel finish. A rust brown would be more appropriate for this gun. It is done without heating the barrel and if it is done correctly according to instructions rust brown will leave a far better looking product for a vintage rifle than BC Plum Brown.

Yep bigger bullet, thicker patch, bigger hammer! And more powder!

RB

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pat i. posted this 02 September 2013

nimrod wrote: Yep bigger bullet, thicker patch, bigger hammer! And more powder!

RB Rich you're turning into the Roy Weatherby of the muzzle loading world! Good luck at the nationals.

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nimrod posted this 02 September 2013

Yep! Me and Ole Roy would have got along just fine! But seriously what ever shoots the best is what I shoot. If 15 grains is the most accurate fine that's my load. If 115 grains shoots best that's what I'll shoot.

I think that most round ball shooters don't shoot enough powder for the most accurate load. I see lots of people that just get the rifle shooting good and quit with the load developement. Take it on up another 15 to 20 grains doing 5 grains at a time and see what happens? If the accuracy stays the same good but it just might get better. This is best done on a really good day to shoot good light with as good a wind condition as posssible. But then some day when at the range and the winds a jerking around or even a steady hard wind try going up again on the powder charge. You just might get a surprise but then again if the accuracy stays the same then you have truly got a good load worked out.

RB

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pat i. posted this 02 September 2013

Since I certainly can't argue with your shooting results I'll give it a try. I went from 50 to 70 grs when I was testing loads in my GPR cap gun. 60 was the best of the bunch so that's what I've been using. Next time I'll start at 70 and work up to see what happens. I won't go high enough so that I can seat the ball against the powder with my short starter but I'll try to get close.

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nimrod posted this 02 September 2013

Get a longer barrel!

RB

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pat i. posted this 02 September 2013

Ingenious!!! I never would have thought of that.

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onondaga posted this 03 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

I don't know if you have started your Plum Brown yet. It is a lot of draw filing if you are doing that to freshen up. I have also just draw filed once and then bead blasted on rifle barrels with surface pitting like in your picture, The bead blasting cleans out the pitting and covers a lot of flaws, then leaves a finish that will also hide new scratches. Bead blasting also leaves a dull finish that does not reflect light and that is good for an actual fielded hunting rifle. The color appearance, however, will be much darker if you bead blast.

Take your time and do your best, that rifle is a beauty. The false muzzle could be bead blasted and Plum Browned too.

Please post progress pictures of that beauty!!!!

Gary

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