BURNT, SHREDDED SQUARE PATCHES

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  • Last Post 08 September 2013
onondaga posted this 07 September 2013

 BURNT, SHREDDED SQUARE PATCHES Doing a lot of Muzzle loading shooting here with the Postal Matches in full gear.  The Goex FFF from a friend gave me a surprise today and so did square patches lubed with TC Bore Butter. My rifle is a Lyman Great Plains Rifle with 1:60 twist and recently added Lyman Peep sight. Round balls are .999 pure lead at .495” diameter. I cut 1.250” square patches from my same .014” cotton twill as I use for round patches cut to 1.125” diameter patches. Because I shot testing the Goex FFF black powder I lubed the square patches with TC Bore Butter. My shots with Alliant Black MZ substitute black were the same .014” thick cotton twill and spit lubed round cut patches. The charge for both powders is a 53 gr volume charge, not weighted today. ( edit: 53 gr volume BMZ weighs 50.1 gr) The difference is dramatic. <url=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9060016_zpsd3999662.jpg.html> <url=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9060018_zps949aa2e7.jpg.html> The first target at bull #1 started tight with a flier on the 5th shot, First target bull #2 shots were all over the place. I cleaned the GOEX fouling between shots with one Mean Grean wet patch then two dry ones for all shots with Goex. All my cleaning patches are heavy sweat pant cloth on a ribbed jag. All the patches picked up from the grass were  scortched significantly and  had shredded holes. <url=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9060017_zps9241e7fa.jpg.html>   The second target, both bulls is just how my rifle has been shooting with Alliant Black MZ. The patches were spit lubed and held up well. I used one dry cleaning patch between shots with BMZ. <url=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P9060019_zpscd026156.jpg.html> I tried a non match squirrel target of my favorite design too. Alliant BMZ charges were used on the squirrel. The Great Plains Rifle with Goex FFF sure didn't like lubed square patches.  This isn't upsetting. I've been at this since 1957 and will find a cure. Any suggestions on using the Goex would be helpful, I got 4.5 pounds of it as a gift! Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 07 September 2013

Looking at your Goex patches I am thinking that you may have a patch lube issue. Fifty grains of FFF is a mild load and shouldn't burn those patches that badly. Those things are blown away. I like spit patches with black powder. I get gas cutting at the grooves sometimes but nothing like that. Sam Fadala in one of his books recommended hornets nest as an over powder wad to insulate his patches. A wool felt wad might do. Bore butter is a nice lube. Maybe more is better. If all else fails I will burn the powder for you and tell you what worked best for me! When I had my fifty I shot 70g and a .490” ball with a tight weave denim spit patch. It was the best shooting muzzle loader that I ever had.

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Pigslayer posted this 07 September 2013

I really don't care for bore butter. I use “Old Zip Patch Grease” from Dixie Gun Works and I have had good luck. It consists of Mutton Tallow along with other things. Works well.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 07 September 2013

Seriously, I'm thinking my spit puts out the fire and Bore Butter burns !!!!!

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 07 September 2013

I watch how people load at matches and a lot of them use spit even at over the log matches. They don't recommend it for hunting as it will dry up, muck the powder, or freeze. Equal parts Murphy's oil soap, isopropyl alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide are supposed to be good. Some guys call it “friendship juice” as in the Friendship matches.

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linoww posted this 07 September 2013

So you have not compared the same lube powder combo with square and round patches of the same cloth as the only change? Or did i misread it?

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 07 September 2013

For hunting use I used straight Crico for years and never had any issues.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 07 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww You read correctly,  I haven't done that comparison yet but Bore Butter sure seems like a big loser at this point.  I actually feel that a lot of shooters  on this board  are correct saying there is no difference using square or round patches.  Honestly, my patch fit is excellent here regarding the patch.  The ball is .495” in a .502” G to G bore with a .014” patch. I am swaging the ball at the start.

The fit is so tight, it nearly takes two hands to ram the ball home with a clean or nearly clean bore, just the way that has always given me the best accuracy with a round ball. I fold the excess of the square patch over the started ball and that gives some protection against the cupped ramrod brass deforming the ball. That, to me, seemed an improvement.....except for the burning and shredding when using Bore Butter with real black powder.

Years ago when I shot a lot of real black/round ball with my dearly missed Lancaster County rock lock rifle,  I used Murphy's Oil Soap straight as a patch lube and did not have problems at all. I also used Lyman BP Revolver Lube as a patch lube in that old rock lock with no problems. I still have an unopened old tube  of the Lyman stuff and may give that a re-try because I already know that FFF black leaves a lot more fouling without a good patch lube to soften the fouling of real BP.

Now I have match targets next, so further experimenting is on hold. I'll be shooting what is working the best for me, cut round spit patches and Alliant BMZ.

Gary

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linoww posted this 07 September 2013

I shot Pyro P(up to 90g) and patched ball a year ago with success in my GP Hunter .50 1-32.Now with the same combo all my patches are like your square ones shown.I tried all other combo's and never could match the success i had all last summer.Shoots good with FF or FFF Goex or old G-O.Big mystery.

So Black MZ is working for you? I like Triple Seven with conicals but cant get it to work with Patch ball.The patches are turned inside out and fried to a crisp.I figured the new Alliant Sub' would be the same.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 07 September 2013

George,  I couldn't be happier with the Alliant BMZ, it even bangs louder and kicks harder than FFF black ! The accuracy is there for me too and I plan on buying several  more pounds of BMZ and not looking back. With the round balls shooting so well now I will use them in the ML season here in NY with BMZ powder.

Gary

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AWOL posted this 07 September 2013

Maybe your patches are being cut at the muzzle when you use the square patch/wonder lube combo. I'd try wonder lube and a round patch & see what happens. Also square patch and another slicker lube. (I don't relish the thought of putting a big square patch in my mouth to try them with spit). I've been using Hoppes #9 Plus with good results.

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4060may posted this 07 September 2013

Gary

I have been using either Neatsfoot oil or Canola oil to wet the patch, just damp I also cut the patch at the muzzle

If I shoot dirty, I lube the patches with BW, Mutton Tallow and Castor, oil not too stiff

when I shot the Bench match I had the same problem with blown patches

wrong patch material, same thickness not tight enough weave...remembered which material I used and the problem of blown patches went away..still shake though

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4060may posted this 07 September 2013

ahh the old double post

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pat i. posted this 07 September 2013

Fixed Chuck.

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argie1891 posted this 07 September 2013

last week I shot my renegade with 50 caliber barrel 50gr. goex fff and bore butter to lube the patch. I had to go out and stomp out the burning patch. luckily where I was it was all gravel. had I been shooting in the dry grass as slow as I am it could have been interesting. I think it is the bore butter that burns. and yes I was using a square patch, but I don't think that was the issue. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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onondaga posted this 07 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=896>argie1891  Thanks for confirming my suspicion that Bore Butter is a combustion accelerant for cotton patches.  The product was a first and last time buy for me. Good thing I put the large tube back and bought the smallest size to try, there was a big difference in price for the large tube.

Gary

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argie1891 posted this 08 September 2013

I think part of the problem is that I use too much. damn stuff comes out of the tube and is so messy I don't spread it out into a light coating. if I get a lot on patch I just rub a bit with the mouth of the tube and load. I don't want that stuff on my hands. it is for sure messy. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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onondaga posted this 08 September 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=896>argie1891  I took my time at home applying the BoreButter and worked on a small lap board. I put a dab on a patch on the board and rubbed it in evenly. I did 30  patches evenly, stacked them,  wrapped the bunch in plastic wrap and put a brick over them over-nite before I went to the range.

Mine were not over saturated at all, but evenly and lightly lubed.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 08 September 2013

Pigslayer wrote: I really don't care for bore butter. I use “Old Zip Patch Grease” from Dixie Gun Works and I have had good luck. It consists of Mutton Tallow along with other things. Works well.

Pat

Bump

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 08 September 2013

Shot more GOEX today at my club. Ten shots with round spit lubed patches, ten shots with round Hoppe's Elete lubed patches. Had no burned shredded patches, but my rifle still does not like GOEX powder. Groups with GOEX are twice the size as groups with Alliant Black MZ from my Lyman Rifle.

Had one spectacular squirrel target today with BMZ in the Lyman Rifle. I'm not going to show it---you wouldn't believe it! I still don't believe it and probably will never shoot that well in the match.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 08 September 2013

With my flinters I have to use Black powder. Pyrodex just doesn't want to ignite. I had read the reasons/dynamics as to why but not going to get into all that here. I haven't tried any other substitute . I took my .45 cal Flinter to the range yesterday & had a lot of fun. I really haven't shot that one that much since I finished building it three years ago. Anyway from the bench I was shooting 2” high & the same to the right at 50 yds. I adjusted the front sight for windage and then was shooting about 1/2” to the left! Drat! Then I ran out of charges. I Pre-weigh my charges & put them in small glass vials. Didn't bring enough! As some of you flint shooters may know, adjusting for elevation is by using a file. No adjustment screws on primitive sights, that's for sure. But . . . I love it anyway.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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