A .32-20 Update

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Ed Harris posted this 29 September 2018

Picked up a S&W .32-20 S&W Hand Ejector made in the late 1930s.

Good "shooter grade" for which I did not have to pay a collector's price. 

Has exterior rust spots and pitting from being stored in a holster, but bore and chambers are bright and clean, timing correct, but not shot loose from too many hot loads. Shot about 10" low at 50 yards, so took about .025" off the top of the front sight to correct that. Velocities almost identical to my 5" Colt.

Velocity Data for S&W Hand Ejector 4" (1939) Updated 30 Oct. 2018

Factory loads:
Rem.-UMC 100-grain lead__889 fps, 16 Sd
1930s "Dogbone" logo box

WRA 100-grain Lubaloy____867 fps, 29 Sd
1940s round primer, yellow box

Western 100-grain SP_____929 fps, 45 Sd
1940s "Target" box

Handloads:
Accurate 31-105T 105-grain flat-nosed bullet: 
3.2 grains of TiteGroup____876 fps, 20 Sd
3.4 grains of Bullseye_____867 fps, 28 Sd

4.5 grains AutoComp_____868 fps, 25 Sd

7.5 grains Alliant #2400___988 fps, 59 Sd

9.5 grains IMR4227______949 fps, 28 Sd

Hornady 100-grain XTP .312"
4.7 grains AutoComp______871 fps, 39 Sd 
5.0 grains AutoComp______921 fps, 25 Sd - Approximates velocity of pre WW2 factory load

9.5 grains IMR4227_______948 fps, 27 Sd

New data added 30 Oct. for 9.5 grs. of IMR4227 with Accurate 31-105T and Hornady 100 XTP in this gun.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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David Reiss posted this 29 September 2018

Looks like a great candidate for a spray finish. I have used  2.7 gr. of Trail Boss and got similar results with the Arsenal 314-100
(Lyman 313631 clone). 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 29 September 2018

Nice find. 

Do you ever use old PACHMAYR Grip Adapters or TYLER T- Grips ?

I find that my big mitts need more then even the old S&W Magna grips with my pinky curled under the butt.

I just Hate the looks of big grips on a old skinny bbl 10 or M1917. So I went to the T-Grips. My DAD Loved the old PACHMAYR Grip Adapters. I think the grip adapters give an old skinny bbl a "better looking balance". And all the grip you need for the mild to medium loads I shoot in them.

 

 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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delmarskid posted this 29 September 2018

I had one of those in a hand ejector. Not as nice as that one but it was a fine shooter. I gave it to my Mom for Christmas. My loads were very similar.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 September 2018

BigMan54,  Yes I have a T-Grip adapter for it, but haven't put it on.  Wanted to try the stock grips, since the loads are mild.

Cylinder throats are .3145-.315"

Cylinder gap pass 0.005", hold 0.006"

Just barely perceptible end play, maybe 0.001" with empty brass in gun.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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joeb33050 posted this 29 September 2018

BigMan54,  Yes I have a T-Grip adapter for it, but haven't put it on.  Wanted to try the stock grips, since the loads are mild.

Cylinder throats are .3145-.315"

Cylinder gap pass 0.005", hold 0.006"

Just barely perceptible end play, maybe 0.001" with empty brass in gun.

 

rEAD THIS AND RAN DOWNSTAIRS, TRIED BOTH m10S with and without empty brass, no detectable end play on either with or without5 brass. End play is back/forth, of the cylinder, right? I was going to measure cylinder barrel clearance, but that guy who hides my glasses took all my feeler gauges.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 September 2018

Joe, you got it.  In measuring cylinder gap the "pass" dimension is the thickness of blade feeler gage you can insert between the barrel extension and cylinder, and pull the trigger DA with empty brass in the chambers through a full rotation without resistance.  The "hold" dimension is the thickness of gage which binds the cylinder repeating the same test when you try to pull it through DA.

To measure end shake or end play, repeat the "hold" dimension test with an empty cylinder, no brass.  We use fired brass as an expedient replacement for Go headspace gages.  End shake is the difference between the "hold" dimension measured with and without "rear gage" in place.

I'm not sure what current S&W specs are...When I was at Ruger minimum "pass" was 0.003" before proofing.  After proof and function test it is normal for the cylinder gap to increase up to 0.001 or so as the parts settle into place.  Statistical average for new revolvers is close to the Mean Assembly Tolerance of 0.004 pass/0.006 hold, with no more than 0.002" end play.  Max. cylinder gap for new guns going into shipping after proof and targeting was 0.008" pass, 0.009" hold, but this would be very unusual unless the LE customer specified a larger gap as insurance against cylinder binding with lead +P service ammo, typical of St. Louis, Kansas City, NYPD, Boston, Baltimore, DCMPD.  Agencies using jacketed ammo, US Secret Service, Customs and Border Patrol, US Marshalls, Postal Inspectors, ONI, USAFOSI, etc. would specify gap towards min. as their revolvers would never see lead ammo. 

Max gap for customer service repairs in the 1980s was 0.009 pass, 0.010 hold.  I have seen recent S&Ws which were this large and have measured dozens of wartime S&W Victory Model .38s which came out of Factory Through Repair in UK, Canada and Australia which were as large as 0.012." 

I can tell you from personal experience that if cylinder gap is over 0.012" that a S&W Victory revolver firing UK Mk2z .380 Rimmed service ammo with 178-grain FMJ bullet WILL lodge a bullet in the barrel before you complete a 100-round function test.  I have seen Webley MkVI .455 revolvers with cylinder gaps as large as 0.018" which shot perfectly OK with service loads or lubricated lead bullets, but my recommendation is that revolvers having cylinder gaps over 0.012" probably should not be fired until repaired by a competent gunsmith.

If the cylinder gap was found excessive the factory fix at Ruger was to refit a new cylinder. 

"Long" cylinders were used in customer service and were selected by sorting to be at max. tolerance +0.005" from Mean Assembly.  The substitution would bring most loose guns into spec after the end shake was taken out by stretching the crane arbor.

Occasionally when an older S&W is returned to the factory for repair of a loose gap, I have been told they may return it as "Unrepairable OFG".  This means "Open Front Gage", which is a factory term for excessive cylinder gap.  While the usual gunsmith fix is to set the barrel back a thread, take out the end shake and reface the barrel to correct the loose gap, the factory customer service depts. seldom do this any more, and will return a gun as "unrepairable" if it cannot be fixed by replacing parts which are in stock.  They don't want to get into a custom shop, repair operation.

Dave Reiss please chime in if I have left anything important out. 

My experience is more to Rugers than S&Ws and there are important differences.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 30 September 2018

 As always, a wealth of knowledge. Thanks for the details.

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BigMan54 posted this 30 September 2018

Why is it every time I read one of ED'S post's, it make me feel as ignorant as a GEN X Liberal ?

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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oscarflytyer posted this 30 September 2018

Ed

 

JUST got my first 32-20 last night.  1923 Colt Police Positive Special w/ 4" bbl.  Are the loads you mention below mild/good loads for my era Colt?  Thanx in advance!

Accurate 31-105T 105-grain flat-nosed bullet: 

3.2 grains of TiteGroup____876 fps, 20 Sd
3.4 grains of Bullseye_____867 fps, 28 Sd
7.5 grains Alliant #2400___988 fps, 59 Sd

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Ed Harris posted this 30 September 2018

Yes, all three of those loads , plus the ones I added later not appreciably above 900 fps will be OK in the Colt, but those charges should not be exceeded.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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oscarflytyer posted this 01 October 2018

Thanx Ed!

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delmarskid posted this 15 October 2018

As long as people are asking, how strong is the 1889 Marlin? Mine is tight and I'm hoping to keep it that way. I have been using loads similar to the ones listed above.

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RicinYakima posted this 15 October 2018

I have one that has a new 1894CL barrel on it. Original had rust pits in the chamber and cases had to be tapped out with a cleaning rod. I have been shooting my "black powder" level loads for about 10 years, 115 grain bullet, 3.0 grains of Bullseye, 4.5 grains of Unique and 7.5 grains of 2400. While it is not a Winchester Model 1892, it isn't a 1873 either. As long as the bolt and locking block aren't getting peened, it should last a long time.

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M3 Mitch posted this 15 October 2018

My general impression is that same era Marlin lever guns are stronger than equivalent Winchesters.  They tend to go for lower prices as well.  That and the old-school Ballard rifling, intended for cast bullets, makes them a favorite with me anyway.  Not that I have anything against Winchesters either LOL.

That said I don't see any real sense in hot-loading the 32-20, when I have all sorts of other revolvers and rifles that can easily outdo the hottest sane 32-20 load with little strain.  Light to normal loads are great for small game and up to coyotes, but it's not really a deer gun regardless of how hot you load it.  

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delmarskid posted this 16 October 2018

Thanks guys that is my thinking. I was just wondering what others are doing.

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Eutectic posted this 17 October 2018

If you all keep on with this 32-20 thread I may get tempted when one comes my way again.

This will cost me gun, dies and a mold and it will all be YOUR FAULT.

Steve

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RicinYakima posted this 17 October 2018

Well, they cost less to shoot than a 22LR, are light weight for walking, don't require ear muffs with light loads and you get to reload the cases!

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delmarskid posted this 17 October 2018

Persactly, I let a pump Remington in 32-20 get by me and I regret it. I let a Marlin clip gun and a Savage bolt go by the same way. Worst of it is each time there was a match sitting next to it in 25-20. Too bad we don't get to be young, lucky, and have money at the same time.

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M3 Mitch posted this 17 October 2018

If you all keep on with this 32-20 thread I may get tempted when one comes my way again.

This will cost me gun, dies and a mold and it will all be YOUR FAULT.

Steve

Well, most good 32-20 molds are usable for a "plinking" bullet for bigger 30 caliber rifles, or even as a heavy bullet for 32 S&W Long and similar.  So the mold won't be just for the 32-20.

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Ed Harris posted this 22 October 2018

Since I got the 1939 S&W Hand Ejector 4" which is heat treated, my 5", 1920ish date of manufacture Colt Police Positive which was used as the revolver platform in a recent Fouling Shot issue is being adopted into a new home.

SPF to M3 Mitch. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ALYMAN#1 posted this 05 November 2018

Thanks for all the great information in this post.

Is a 4" Colt police positive Special from approx. 1931 (in excellent mechanical condition) a good heat treated revolver?

I do understand the cautions on not overloading the Colts from some previous adventures.

My first load was 311008 about 0.314 D with 3.3 grs HP38.  Brass from GA arms 32-20 cowboy load 100 gr supposedly about 800- 850 fps (not specified rifle or pistol).  It didn't seem too hot to get the Starline brass.  Any thoughts?

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Ed Harris posted this 05 November 2018

Any Colt Police Positive .32-20 is going to be heat treated.  However this is a smaller, lighter frame than S&W .32-20 Hand Ejectors of the same period and I would not use loads in excess of what I have listed above. 

The loads shown with Alliant #2400 and IMR4227 which appreciably exceed 900 fps I would treat like +P for occasional use only in the Colts and not as a "steady diet," if you want the gun to last.  

I would standardize on the 3.4 Bullseye, 3.2 TiteGroup  or 4.5 AutoComp loads for general use.  Your HP38 load is  fine, as would be similar charges of W231, up to about 3.5 grains, or 4 grains of Unique or Universal, which don't appreciably exceed 900 fps with 105-grain lead bullet similar to Accurate 31-105T.

Also consider barrel-cylinder gap when determining loading limits with a chronograph.  If your cylinder gap exceeds about 0.009-0.010" resist the temptation to bump the load to increase velocity.  Accept that a maximum cylinder gap will produce about 50 fps lower velocity than a snug gap closer to Mean Assembly Tolerance.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ALYMAN#1 posted this 08 November 2018

I will try this again - thought I posted previously.

Recently came into approx. 1931 era Colt police Positive Special 32-20 in excellent mechanical condition about 0.006-0.008 cyl gap.  Is this a better heat- treated item?  I understand the cautions about overloading older Colt DA's - have seen some abused and have installed a late model hand in an old OMHB ( with lots of returning to Kuhnhausen).  Loads so far have been  100 gr. Ga Arms cowboy loads at advertised 850 fps - (not chrono'ed) and 3.3 gr HP38 with my 115 gr. 311008.  No significant signs of being too hot on either.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

KAL

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Ed Harris posted this 08 November 2018

Looks like you posted question again about the same time I answered.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ALYMAN#1 posted this 09 November 2018

As previously mentioned thanks for sharing with the rest of us - have been following this topic for a while since obtaining this Colt.

KAL

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