CB sizing dies---open up

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  • Last Post 09 October 2019
Tom Acheson posted this 30 September 2019

I have a Saeco sizing lubricator, and an RCBS unit.

I proved to myself that the Saeco doesn'"bend" bullets (6mm) like the RCBS unit does. So all of my sizing is done with the Saeco unit.

The current project is a rifle in .38-55. The largest sizing die that Saeco offers is 0.378". Lyman has 0.379, 0.380 and 0.381 These can be used in the RCBS sizer. RCBS only offers a 0.378 sizing die.

This topic has probably been kicked around here before but is there anyone out there that can slightly open up a Saeco sizing die.

Thanks!

Tom

 

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 30 September 2019

How far do you need to go?

I have two saeco lube sizers that I use. One old black one that I bought new fifty + years ago and another newer one. And was faced with the same problem with a Marlin 336 CB 38-55 several years ago.

I needed to go out to .380" for that Marlin so I bought a Saeco .378" lube sizer die and lapped it out to .380". using a lap and my lathe. More of a polishing job than anything else. Those dies are hard. kind of a lap and try deal.

However, the down side is that if one goes much  more than .0015", an over sized push pin also has to be made to prevent lube leakage.

 

R. 

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Bohica793 posted this 01 October 2019

You could contact Lathesmith on the other cast site and have him make you one.

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porthos posted this 01 October 2019

i thought that Lathesmith did not made sizing dies for  Saeco/Redding  ??

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Ed Harris posted this 01 October 2019

Another possibility is to contact DougGuy on the other forum and have him hone an extra, existing die up for you.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BudHyett posted this 01 October 2019

The RCBS will take Lyman sizing dies. I understand the reluctance because of bending bullets. I have observed this phenomenon before with 6 mm and .25 caliber bullets. My 6 mm bullets were the RCBS 243-095-SP and the .25 caliber were the Mos 119 grain, both long bullets.

With .45 caliber bullets in the RCBS and the Lyman 45, the bending did not occur. Perhaps the .378 bullets will resist the side pressure and not bend.

The other possibility is the machining was way off and the centerlines of the ram and the die are not within tolerance. You might consider talking to RCBS about the return of this unit and hopefully getting a better unit. I would request talking to the production engineer rather than the customer representative for this return.. 

 

Country boy from Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 October 2019

Bud,

I'll pursue the custom Saeco or modified Saeco. Failing that, I'll roll the dice on a Lyman 0.380". I suspect the bigger .38 bullets will have less of a tendency to bend. We'll see.....

Tom

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rhbrink posted this 02 October 2019

I have a shooting friend that started with casting and shooting 40 and 45 cal bullets in the BPCR game he decided to start shooting the military cast bullet game and was bending bullets. After a lot head scratching we took the Lyman sizer apart and looking from the top down through where the ram slid up and down you could see that the top guide for the ram was not in line with the bottom part that holds the die. A call to Lyman and the gal that he talked to as soon as he described the problem said that there would be a new sizer in the mail today no questions asked! So evidently that was a problem the Lyman had and knew about?

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Shopdog posted this 02 October 2019

Slight tangent on bending. I shoot long bore riders,the RCBS 95G 6mm is a good example. Although I'm not "sizing" the body,shooting as cast..... there's some significant bending moment during seating GC's.

What solved the issue,and started me down this path on other cals,was a top punch that goes all the way down to the first drive band. I pre bore these TP's then,run a D reamer in to refine the profile. Works great. This then,logically led to manipulation of the nose shape. But that's getting away from "bending". Best of luck with your project.

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John Alexander posted this 02 October 2019

Lee push through dies to seat gas check obviously eliminate the problem. Then lube with tumble lube or in lubrisizer with slightly oversize die. A little more work a lot better results.

John

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 October 2019

John,

Thanks. Met with Jim Scearcy and John K. earlier today and Jim suggested the same route.

The catch is getting an oversized die. The next one up from Saeco is 0.401 and I’ve never tumble lubed. That’s what I do with my 40 cal. BPCR bullets. They fall out of the mold at exactly the correct dia. and then lube in a 0.412” die. Lee does not list the size needed so it would need to be a custom size, about $38.00. I did find a guy who will open up the Saeco one that I have for $35.00, so a wash there but adding an oversized die increases the Lee route.

But.... Lyman has a 0.380” that would go into my RCBS unit. These plain base bullets are 250-310 grains so I would not expect them to deflect like a 6mm does. The Lyman die is about $30. Oddly the Lyman and Midsouth sites don’t list a 0.380” but the Midway site does.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 October 2019

Housekeeping time...

I decided to buy my first Lyman sizing die in 0.380". I did find a guy who would open up the existing 0.378" Saeco CB sizing die to 0.380" but I decided to go the Lyman route for now. Thanks for the input guys!

Tom

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 08 October 2019

I had an issue with bending bullets when sizing some 45-70 bullets in the RCBS sizer.  I was sizing base first and it seemed like the upper portion of the bullet was not supported so bent and swelled up a bit.  I tried sizing nose first into the RCBS die until it almost bottomed out, then reversed and sized and lubed base first.  It seemed to have less distortion and since most of the bullet was already sized, took a lot less force.  It might work in your situation.  Simple and easy to give it a try with the size die you already have.

Duane

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 October 2019

Duane,

I no longer use 6mm bullets. My challenge in this post was bullet diameter being too small and a larger dia. Saeco die not being available.

When I get around to sizing some .38-55 bullets in the Lyman die in the RCBS machine, if they "bend", I'll try your correction method if they do bend.

Thanks!

Tom

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John Alexander posted this 08 October 2019

I have been loading very long 22 cast bullets (72-85 grain) for a long time, often sizinging base first.  I have used alloys from 25:1 to linotype and never observe one bending (no longer being straight) during sizing.  So I am a bit puzzled about "bent" bullets.

I have had bullets upset (that is shorten and increase in diameter) during sizing making the nose diameter too large to to use.  Do bullets really bend as in a pretzel or are folks calling upset bullets bent? I have never thought to ask before.

John

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R. Dupraz posted this 08 October 2019

Me too John. ?

Only difference is when the nose expands beyond the point of fitting the bore or they are normally too big, I use an NOE nose sizer bushing of the diameter that I want to make them all uniformly fit the bore. One of the competitors in our gang around here purposely expands the nose of bullets for a better fit . His name is usually at the top of the heap. 

 

R.

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 October 2019

Maybe saying “bent” is incorrect. 

What I saw with my 6mm bullets was lube grooves squished together (no gaps) and more pronounced vertical sizing die lines on one side of the bullet but 180 degrees around the perimeter of the bullet the lube groove sizes look normal. You probably cannot discern the bullet leaning like the Tower of Pisa but with the lube groove distortions it’s hard to conclude that the bullet is “straight”.

Is this is a case of the sizing die not being concentric with the die chamber in the unit or misalignment of the ram/nose punch items?

Tom

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R. Dupraz posted this 08 October 2019

"Is this is a case of the sizing die not being concentric with the die chamber in the unit or misalignment of the ram/nose punch items?"

 

Tom

Yipes! Not a pretzel but close !

Wouldn't it be easy enough to find out whether it was the die or the sizer by rotating the die 180 degrees and then trying another bullet to see if the squished bands occurred in the same "clock position". Or not. 

 

If''n those tools were here, either or both would be on their way back to RCBS in short order.

 

R.

 

 

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 October 2019

Richard,


Yes, that approach would provide more evidence as to what is going on.

When I get around to sizing some smaller dia. and longer bullets, I’ll play with it. But with my new Lyman 0.380” sizer I’ll be looking over my .38-55 bullets closely to see if the distortions surface with those fatter but long bullets.

Tom

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John Alexander posted this 08 October 2019

"One of the competitors in our gang around here purposely expands the nose of bullets for a better fit . His name is usually at the top of the heap."

An off topic historical note.  Back when the CBA was young in the late 1970s and early 1980s. This was a hot topic perhaps partly driven by the molds available at the time which usually had undersized noses.  (It was done with the lubrisizer and called bumping before more sophisticated swaging (now called bumping) was introduced most famously by the late John Ardito.)

Unfortunately the lubrisizer weren't built for this trick and when done with the harder alloys resulted in lots of broken handles and lots of discussion in the early Fouling Shots.

John

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RicinYakima posted this 09 October 2019

Amazing how much we have advanced in 40 years, isn't it.

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