Comments on COLT SAA "Playing"

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BigMan54 posted this 09 July 2017

I read with great interest the June blog with the Tom Acheson story from the #162 Fouling Shot Mar/April 2003 on loading for his Turnbull COLT in .45Colt.  

I have a few comments.  

Powder position blowing up revolvers . There was much discussion in the late 1970'S about BULLEYE blowing up guns because the small charge laid on the bottom of the case as the gun was positioned with the bbl/chamber's held horizontally prior to squeezing the trigger. The primer would flash over the powder charge igniting the entire charge at once, causing an extreme pressure detonation. Never bought it, & nobody ever succeeded in proving it. 

There was a great deal of experimenting in .45Colt loads back then. But in the opposite direction from the past. Cowboy Action Shooters  (SASS) wanted lighter & lighter loads. Starting loads out of the Handbooks at 1st  then some strange lighter than ever loads. Powders started with the standards; Unique, 700X & W231. Bullets; 200gr & 250gr. Then new powders; Clays & TiteGroup.  Bullets down to 165gr, even seating bullet noses below the case mouth. Although that stopped in a hurry. SASS Rules changed against such dangerous practices.  I settled on a light load of Clays over a 225gr CAV or 230gr TC. Been using that same load since 1991. It's extremely  accurate In my old 7 1/2" VAQUERO.  I've also loaded .45S&W cases with 200grainers for a true feather-light load.

Guns just blowing up. In one of the 1st Posse/team shoots I ever participated in, the Lady next to me had her revolver blow up in her hand. Fortunately she was not injured.  I was not so lucky. Part of a chamber top sliced through the skirt on my holster, my pant leg & into my leg. Luckily it had slowed down enough to barely draw blood. I got a bandaid & dumped the offending chamber piece outa my boot. I talked to the Ladies husband about the incident & discovered that he had used a dillon 450 to reload their ammo. He of course bought it by mail (no real Internet in 1988) on the recommendation of another Cowboy Shooter.  He went to a local gun shop, bought a scale & required components to load the recipe his "friend" had written out for him. Set up the dillon press according to their directions & started loading. NO RELOADING MANUAL!!!!! NO EXPERIENCE!!!!!! NO INSTRUCTION FROM AN EXPERIENCED RELOADER!!!!!         

As time went on I pursued my investigations into gun blowups. In almost every instance it could be traced back to a dillon  progressive press bought by an ignoramus with no experience/instruction through mail/internet. That THRICE D****D cheap a** dillon aluminum powder measure. 

I loaned a box of .45Colt ammo to another shooter at a match who had run short one time.  He returned  the brass at the next match, reloaded with the same recipe I used except he'd used 230gr RN instead of 225gr TC. I chose to burn that ammo up after a match. The 7th round blew the top strap in the same old way, taking the upper 3 chamber tops with it. He'd loaded it on a dillon.

I lost a  good spaghetti replica single action & a buddy lost a new D bar J hat that day, all because of an inexperenced dillon owner. Never loaned a gun again unless my own ammo went with it.

 Enuf whining/ranting, sorry I got off subject again.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 09 July 2017

Not sure if your rant was putting an blame on the Dillon powder measure or not. I used 450s in the early 80s to load many thousand rounds and never had an issue with it or the measure. As a long time firearms instructor I have seen my fair share of blown up guns. Almost all were one of three issues in the order of frequency:

1) double charge
2) loaded to hot, trying to hot rod
3) wrong ammo (rare compared to 1 & 2) 

You just can't prevent being a dumbass and accidents do happen to otherwise intelligent, but less cautious people. 

 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 09 July 2017

David,

My rant was indeed against the dillon press & powder measure. I have had much personal experience with dillon presses since that 1st ad appeared in the gun mag showing the dillon 450 for sale at $185.00 in the early 1980'S. I had a shooting buddy who wanted to get into reloading. He bought one & brought it over. Before I allowed him to unpack it, I had him load a box each of  .38spl & .30-06 using my RockChucker. 

We had instant problems; the RCBS .38/357 t/c die body was too short to use the big round lock ring. dillon cust serv. answer was to use the lock ring under the die head. Well that didn't allow the shell plate to rise far up enough. I solved the problem by getting a pair of old very thin opposing lock rings from my Dad. We also had primer feeding problems, with the CCI 500 primers we were using. dillon cust serv answer was "don't use CCI primers ' they're out of spec' ". Great, I'd just purchased my 1st sleeve of 5000 primers. Had only bought in 1000 primer increments before. 5000 primers I couldn't use to load in this dillon 500. Then I had trouble trying to load .357Mag with W296 powder. That D***D aluminum powder measure again. dillon cust serv answer " Don't use ball powder ". My buddy Dale would later blow up a both a .45colt revolver replica & a 1866 lever rifle replica using W231.

dillon later changed their powder measure to use a STEEL charge bar.

I also bought a dillon square deal when they 1st came out at  $124.00 . I was was primarily shooting .44spl in my COLTS for Cowboy Action Shooting back then. So I figured I'd give them another chance. I had a problem with the seating die "gumming up" almost before the 1st box was finished. I was loading a  LEE 429-214-1R or a LYMAN #429478 210gr RN cast of CWW & sized .429dia & lubed with 50/50. dillon cust serv answer was don't load cast bullets. I sold it to a club member for what I paid for it. He used commercial cast bullets with that super hard lube that stays in the lube groove after you shoot it. He never had a problem with it at all.

By this time however I had a Hornady PRO-JECTOR, so dillon became a moot point for me.

I guess I just let my personal bad experience color my feeling toward dillon. I'm still a dillon customer, I've bought many other things from them over the years. Often enough to maintain a Blue Press subscription.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 09 July 2017

I switched from the 450 to the 550 in the early 90s. I don't remember having any of the issues you had with the 450, I used RCBS dies exclusively then. Everyone has had their issues with just about every product from time to time, and I guess it was your time with the Dillon. For the money though, I don't think you can get a better progressive press than the 550. Just my opinion, yes I have one of those too. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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GP Idaho posted this 09 July 2017

I owned a Dillon 550B and I have no complaints as to it's function. Great press and Dillon was a good company to deal with. With all the add-ons I had on the press I had more than $1,200 in it and I'm just not that much of a progressive press kind of guy. I still used my Redding T-7 and Rock Chuckers the most so I sold the works to a friend and bought a handgun and more tooling. I get by fine with the single stage presses and a Lee Classic Turret for pistol rounds. But as said Dillon builds great presses in my opinion. Gp

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Larry Gibson posted this 10 July 2017

Had a Dillon SDB since mid '80s. Loaded thousands of 9mm, 38 SPL, 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 SPL, 44 Mag, 45 ACP and 45 Colt w/o any of the problems mentioned.

Loaded thousands of 38 SPLs on a 450 before that. Loaded thousands more 38s and 45 ACPs on a SO 550B. Got my own 550B in '91 and have loaded thousands of different handgun and rifle cartridges on it since then. Still have the SDB and 550B using them often w/o any of the mentioned problems.

Revolver blowups back in '70s with light loads of BE were proven to be double or triple charges with bullets seated too deep.....still have the test article......the progressive press involed ws a CH inline no longer made. Real problem was operator error......

While I love my Dillons I still use my CH and Bonanza Coax single stage presses a lot.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Dale53 posted this 10 July 2017

Larry Gibson is spot on! The NRA commissioned the H.P. White Laboratory to try to find out why guns were blowing up in light loaded PPC revolvers (yeah, it was THAT long ago). They WERE able to replicate the problem. As Larry stated, they discovered that a double charge of the classic load of 2.7 grs. of Bullseye under a HB Wadcutter would not generate enough pressure to blow up a "K" frame Smith. As I remember, it was about 30,000+psi. However, the same double charge when seated 1/16" too deep (from lube build up in the seating die) with the same double charge created over 60,000 psi and a catastrophic revolver failure (cylinder and top strap "GOOD BYE").

The REAL cause was sudden popularity of a new sport (PPC) by a bunch of people who had NO reloading experience that immediately jumped into a Progressive Press with no idea of what they should be doing.

The presses available at the time were mostly Star Progressives. People can manage to throw a double charge in most any Progressive Press out there.

Fast Forward to the sudden popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting. The same set of circumstances were played out again. Untrained reloaders who jumped into a Progressive Press again caused the exact same problems. However, due to the time interval, "everyone" had "forgotten" the lessons learned about Progressive Presses during the PPC Days.

I was very active in early IPSC (when it was practiced as a martial art). Dillon called me and asked to send me a 450 for a trial period. If I liked it I was asked to tell all of my competitive contacts. If I didn't like it to send it back. I LIKED it and told EVERYONE I knew. After a year or so, Dillon sent me a bill (as previously agreed) with the option to return it or send the money. It was a very reasonable price (I would have bought it at retail by that time). When the 550 came out with the interchangeable heads and case activated powder drop, I sold the 450 and bought the 550. I loaded 75,000 (by actual count) rounds of full house .45 ACP's IPSC major caliber loads plus many other loads (I was set up to load eleven different calibers including .375 H&H Magnum) with LOTS of full charge .308's (I shot big bore competition, also), etc.

I now have TWO Dillon 550B's and consider the Dillon 550's to be the best Progressive on the market. It is not the fastest but offers good value, fantastic customer service, and I can say with full confidence that I personally have over 200,000 loads through mine (from light target loads for my .32 longs to full charge .375 H&H Mags) with excellent results. I have NOT blown up any guns and still have my original PPC and IPSC 1911 pistols.

FWIW

Dale53

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BigMan54 posted this 10 July 2017

Well I guess my rant created a few comments. 

I know Dillon are good machines & from all I've heard really stand behind their products.  My past bad experiences have simply colored my judgement toward Dillon loaders. 

I used to have an RCBS Green Machine that was a piece of crap too. I had a HORNADY PRO-JECTOR too. I sold it to buy a HORNADY L-N-L Progressive.  I guess it takes time to work out all the bugs & create improvements based on experience.  The HORNADY also had a big enough press opening for to put my huge mitts into.

On the RCBS die problem,  back when I bought those  .38/357 & .45acp (mid '70'S) die sets.      RCBS didn't make the die bodies any longer than was necessary to be long enough to reach the top of the ram stroke & tall enough for the lock ring to have enough threads to tighten down. Made for some short die bodies.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 10 July 2017

Rog,

I am a huge RCBS fan, but I am in agreement as to the "Green Machine". It was a big RCBS flop, came out too soon trying to compete with Dillon. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 10 July 2017

David, 

Something, I noticed about the Dillon 450-550. As each improvement came along the press would "load up". It would take more effort to cycle the handle.  Also with the HORNADY it was not necessary to by a new dillon expander for each die set. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Dale53 posted this 10 July 2017

I had been casting my own bullets and reloading since about 1950 or so. I had a bunch of different brand dies and it would have cost a PILE to replace all of them when I got my first Dillon. I ran into the same short die body oroblem with some of my dies too. As I remember, Lee dies were about the worst. I jury rigged some dies (lock rings under the die block, etc.) but shortly Dillon offered thin lock rings. I bought a bag of the thin rings and that pretty much solved the problem.

I actually prefer the Dillon dies, but only have a set or so. The rest are from all of the major players.

Dale53

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BigMan54 posted this 11 July 2017

I originally wanted this to be about powder position & loading for the .45Colt.

I got seriously OFF TRACK.  

I had some thoughts on powder position in light target loads & what I call Medium Range Loads. 

For many years I shot at the Los Angeles P.D. Harbor Pistol Range. It was a 25yd only range open to the public until about 2002. Closed to the public for "Safety reasons" airborne lead safety issues. Of course the cops still did fireams training & monthly qualifications. 

Okay enough crap. The Range didn't allow magnum loads.  So we had to come up with loads that felt  something like Magnum but we're still under the " visible/noise" level of what the Range Officers perceived as magnum loads.

The .45Colt fit the bill perfectly. Unique was my powder of choice with a LYMAN #454424 cast of CWW sweetened with a bit of LINOTYPE.  Bullets were sized .452 because my COLT was 3rd Gen & I also had a NM BlackHawk & a S&W 25-5. Powder Charges were taken from old LYMAN handbooks & are now listed as RUGER only.

My range had a solid bench that was the full width, two feet deep, wall to wall. I shot slow fire most of the time. So I got into the habit of firing a round & then bringing down the muzzle to rest on the front edge of the bench. Then keeping my arms fully extended I would fire the next round. I think you can see where I'm going with this. Because of the way I was holding/firing my sixgun I was keeping the powder up against the base of the bullet. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Larry Gibson posted this 11 July 2017

I originally wanted this to be about powder position & loading for the .45Colt.

I got seriously OFF TRACK.  

I'm one who has done enough loading of the 45 Colt to understand the delicacies of powder position in such. I'm certainly open for a discussion....

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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BigMan54 posted this 11 July 2017

Sorry, I got interrupted just as I started this post. Just came back to were I left off.

I noticed after a while that groups shot with the 4 3/4" COLT were tighter in relation to the other 2 sixguns. I was shooting the COLT differently. One handed bullseye style.The COLT would recoil up & I would cock it while it pointed up & THEN bring it down into line to fire. Don't know why I shot the COLT that way, but it finally dawned on me that the powder UP AGAINST the primer shot more accurately.  It was more efficient. The sixguns held muzzle down at  45 degree angle,  had the powder up  against the bullets base.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Dale53 posted this 12 July 2017

Bigman;

I don't know if you have access to a chronograph or not. The chrono is a big help when trying loads for powder position sensitivity.

However, I have a great deal of experience with some cartridges (like .45 ACP, .38 special, 32's, and .44's) but less with the .45 Colt. I have done basic work with the .45 Colt, but not extensive. I don't do Cowboy loads but I do most of my shooting these days, at 25 yards standing. I DO bench shooting when developing loads, however. 

One of the best powders for light loads in the .45 Colt is Titegroup. Some years ago I talked to the Hodgdon Techs at the NRA Convention and they championed Titegroup above all others for the .45's. Titegroup is supposed to be position INSENSITIVE. My limited tests agreed with this. You might want to try it. I have just about used up an 8 lb. caddy with my .45 ACP and really like the stuff. However, I traded some powder for a bunch of HP38 so I am using this for target work, now (in the .38 and .45 ACP). My favorite .45 Colt is a SS Bisley Convertible and since my hunting days are behind me, I shoot the .45 ACP cylinder more that I do the .45 Colt.

However, after I reamed both cylinders with a Manson "made for the job" reamer kit, both of my cylinders shoot extremely well at both target velocity as well as "full house". If I were still deer hunting (too old and feeble to drag a deer out of the woods, these days) I wouldn't hesitate to use the .45 Colt with a 250-300 gr. bullet ahead of a heavy load of H110 on any deer I wanted.

FWIW,

Dale53

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BigMan54 posted this 12 July 2017

I had a CHRONY for several years. I did a lot of testing with CLAYS, TITEGROUP, W231, UNIQUE, 700X & BULLSEYE. I came to two conclusons .

BULLSEYE doesn't work for beans as far as starting loads for accuracy in big cases.

TITEGROUP is instead not sensitive to it's position in the case, as evidenced by drawing and firing from the hip. DRAW, FIRE,  HOLSTER &  REPEAT: DRAW, FIRE, HOLSTER & REPEAT. And so on. TITEGROUP gave the most consistent velocities of all powders tried.

I tried  TITEGROUP as soon as it came out in the mid nineties. Mike Daly of HODGDON POWDER gave me a can at END OF TRAIL. I've used it for most light to medium revolver loads ever since. Works great for pistol loads too.

Mike brought out an absolutely fantastic booklet on COWBOY ACTION LOADING DATA that I still use. Too bad its out of print. The HODGDON'S annual doesn't cover half as much.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Dale53 posted this 19 July 2017

BigMan54;

I appreciate your comments on Titegroup in the .45 Colt. My limited experience with Titegroup and light loads with this rather large cartridge case mirrors your experience. That is good to know. I have shot many more black powder loads with the .45 Colt (in Black Powder Cartridge pistol side matches) than I have smokeless. In a good revolver, with proper cylinder throat dimensions and good loads, the .45 Colt comes into it's own. I came to the .45 Colt cartridge rather late in life but like what I see. My Ruger SS Bisley convertible (after reaming both cylinders to proper dimensions) is an EXCELLENT platform for BOTH the .45 Colt and the .45 ACP.

Dale53

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BigMan54 posted this 19 July 2017

Dale,

I started early on the .45Colt. I started shooting one of my Dad's  .45Colt SAA's when I was only 7yrs old. He made light loads just for us little ones. I'd already fired a .357 SAA with .38's, but that COLT .45 SAA was THE GUN I wanted to shoot more than any other gun. To me that was the "BIG TIME".

I've had a .45 BlackHawk convertible since 1980. Put just about every load in .45acp/.45Colt/.45S&W through it I could think of or heard about. I sent it back to RUGER after 2yrs to get the front sight replaced with the highest front sight avaliable.

It's 4 5/8" bbl has probably seen more lead down it than the 750+ lbs stacked out on my patio. I had it fitted with a Super BlackHawk gripframe & fancy Ivory grips as soon as I got it. It has surprisingly little holster wear, probably because it always rode in a lined Bianchi holster with a tight strap. The bbl is .451 & the chamber mouths run .452-.453. It's one of my prized possessions. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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