GunBroker Bargain - Fair Price for Shooter-Grade "Fake"

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Ed Harris posted this 07 April 2018

A "real" Colt Banker's Special is a valuable collector item which brings $2000+ in any kind of serviceable condition.

An ordinary plain vanilla 4-inch Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt New Police, ala Jimmy Cagney in the 1930s gangster movies, brings $500-600 in nice shape.

Now imagine if back in the day a cop wanted a .38 snubby, but the folks at Colt's, being highly ethical people they were, simply would not put a rare Banker's Special barrel on a common Police Positive.  It appears that when this Colt was professionally refurbished, its barrel was bobbed, the front sight moved and the work was done so skillfully it appears almost as if the factory could have done it.  No way to prove that it was, but unquestionably the work was professionally done.

So I have my "Bubba's Banker Special" - aka "New York Reload" to accompany my Police Positive in .38 NP

  

Range report to follow when weather permits.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 07 April 2018

Looks really nice with the "Coltwood" grip panels from a round butt and vintage Tyler "T" grip adapter. Cagney and Bogie would be envious!

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David Reiss posted this 07 April 2018

I don't have a Banker's Special, but I do have it's original sister gun, "The Courier". Picked it up in an online auction about 4 years ago for less than $300. 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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Ed Harris posted this 07 April 2018

Courier is a rare bird.  If you still have the original box you could add a zero to what you paid for it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 08 April 2018

Ed;

Nice looking AND useful little revolver. When I was a teenager, my father gifted my grandfather a .22 adjustable sighted Colt "Banker's Special" (at least that's what we were told). It was definitely a factory job. Not long after, my grandfather was walking the fence lines on his 200 acre farm when he was attacked by a feral dog pack. Fortunately, he had the Banker's Special in his pocket. He dropped the Alpha-Male and the rest of the pack left the scene. Feral Dogs (both two and four legged) are not to be taken lightly!!

FWIW

Dale53

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M3 Mitch posted this 18 April 2018

Ed, I wonder if they got the front sight height "right"?   I would think with a shorter sight radius, probably you need a lower front sight to get more or less point of aim at say up to 25 yards. 

Based on theory and not experience (so could well be wrong!) I would think if you moved the same height front sight from say a 4" barrel to a 2", the gun would shoot low. 

Like you wrote, the job seems so professionally done, I would certainly try a few shots and not be terribly surprised if it was "on". 

Possibly a heavier than standard bullet would improve a low point of impact, if it has one.

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Ed Harris posted this 18 April 2018

You are correct.  Moving front sight back on shorter barrel would require a shorter front sight or a heavier bullet. 

Finally got to the range for the moment of truth.

R-P 146-grain LRN factory ammo gives 614 fps and is 6" low at 50 feet and 2 inches right.

Accurate 36-176P and 2.5 grains of Bullseye is 636 fps and shoots about an inch low to the sights and right.

Accurate 36-190T with 2.5 grains of Bullseye is 604 fps and is dead on the money.  Looks like I got my carry load.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 24 April 2018

I was going to say, probably one of the heavier .38 bullets, up to around 200 grains, might very well be "on" for the sights.  The gun is so well made, I would think the builder set it up to be "on" with some load.

Just from engineering intuition, it seems to me that a short barrel will lose a bit less velocity compared to a longer one, with a heavier bullet.  Has anyone done any actual chronograph shooting to confirm or deny that?

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Ed Harris posted this 24 April 2018

Later my plan is to shoot .38 S&W factory and handloads with various weight bullet handloads in several revolvers having  different barrel lengths and cylinder gaps.  Yesterday I fired .38 S&W ammo from my S&W Model 940 (9mm Centennial) which I modified "ala Ruger" so that I can use 9mm Parabellum with clips and .38 S&W without.

Because people will ask, I will describe the cylinder modification, but doing so voids the factory warranty, so you are on “your own nickel.”  I hand-reamed the entrance of the .356” cylindrical ball seats of the chambers with a Brownell's .32 cal., 11-degree forcing cone reamer, increasing the major diameter of the ball seat entrances from .356” to .359.”  The reamer’s .375” diameter shank serves as a pilot to align the reamer in the 9mm chambers.  Before reaming the chambers are swabbed with Brownell’s Do-Drill. The reamer is threaded onto its T-handle and  holding the stripped cylinder vertically, the reamer rests against the chamber stop surfaces only of its own weight, plus the attached T-handle.  Using light finger pressure, you "twirl" the T-handle. The first 20 light turns produced some fine stainless steel “flour” mixed with cutting oil on the flutes of the reamer.  Wiping the chambers I checked progress dropping five soft lead .358” diameter Magtech 158-grain LRN bullets into the chambers, first pushing them  into the ball seats with hand pressure and then tapping each bullet solidly into its ball seat with a 2-oz. brass hammer, then I tapped them back out again so that they could be measured. 

Visual inspection of the tapped out slugs showed that they entered the ball seats smoothly without shaving. Where the bullet foreparts were forced into the uncut portion of the cylinder throats, they measured .356” and on the bullet shank at the ball seat entrance they measured .3575” being lightly sized by the recut chamber throats.  So I oiled the cylinder again and repeated the process, another 20 twirls around all 5 chambers.  I then took the Brownell’s 3/8” ball chamfer tool to break the wire edge remaining on the reamed ball seats of each case mouth stop surface, then I slugged the reamed chamber throats again. 

Ball seat entrances were now .359” tapering to .356' over about a 1/16” distance without any sharp corner at the transition from case mouth stop surface to ball seat.  Factory 9mm rounds still headspaced properly without the clips and factory R-P 146-grain lead RN .38 S&Ws actually headspace on the crimped case mouth with their rims standing just proud just enough to make up the difference between the .055” thick .38 S&W rim compared to the clipped 9mm Parabellum rounds, as shown in the photo below.

The S&W 940 FIRST FIRING 9mm AMMO

CCI Blazer 115-grain FMJ - 1059 fps, 72 Sd, 245 ES! - Bullets of this ammo are not cemented into the case. Sharp recoil draws them forward, causing erratic velocities and potentially jamming the gun! A bullet protruded out the front of the cylinder, in the last round of the second clip. Loose 9mm rounds go off OK without using the star-clips and poke out easily with a BIC pen. 

W-W 115-grain FMJ White Box - 1091 fps, 19 Sd, 44 ES. - Much more uniform. Bullets cemented into case with military-specification "Black Lucas" according to Winchester. Point of impact was 6" low at 25 yards. - Gun is set up for a heavier bullet. Since .38 S&W factory ammo with 146-grain bulllet shoots to the sights, next range trip I need to try some 9mm 147s and shoot into water jugs to see if they expand from the short barrel. Would be nice to use .38 S&W for practice and 9mm 147-grain for carry.

The W-W "White Box" FMJ gave sticky extraction, you gotta wear a glove to "spank the baby" if banging the ejector rod with the hand!

FIRING .38 S&W Ammo in the 940 - This really works like a champ after the "Ruger Cylinder Mod," described above. Factory ammo shoots to sights and more is accurate than firing 9mm FMJ.

Remington-UMC nickel plated .38 Colt New Police (1940s) gave 671 fps, 26 Sd, 58 ES AND SHOOTS TO THE SIGHTS at 50 feet. The .38 Colt NP round in this gun provides about the same payload and velocity as firing .38 Special wadcutter from a typical 2" snubby. I fired rest of the mixed box of vintage LRN and CNP for function at 25 yards, 6:00 hold, that's exactly where they hit. No malfunctions.  

The 940, despite its 0.010" cylinder gap, gives higher velocity with factory 38 S&W ammo than does my S&W Terrier Model 32-1 which has a 0.005" cylinder gap, 671 vs. 614 fps.  I attribute this to the 940 building higher chamber pressure by squeezing .360" lead bullets down its .356" diameter cylinder throats, whereas the Terrier has .362" cylinder throats more common of its era.  

The pressure build squeezing a fat bullet down tight throats more than compensates for the larger cylinder gap. 

That is exactly the same as was experienced with the Ruger India Models.  My 4-inch Colt .38 Police Positive has .359" cylinder throats and a .355" barrel groove diameter with 0.005" cylinder gap and produces velocities closer to the Ruger, higher than the 5-inch S&W Victory Model.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 26 April 2018

That's good shooting for a DAO snubby.  I am starting to warm up more to snub nose revolvers, previously I thought they would be too hard to shoot accurately compared to a longer barrel.  But for "more normal" handgunning ranges, as you show here, quite accurate shooting can be done, and they are handy and portable.

The snub nose you actually bring with you is going to do more good than the bigger, longer gat you left at home, in the car, whatever.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 April 2018

 

Absolutely.  The concealed hammer S&Ws disappear in the pocket with a suitable pocket holster such as the El Paso Saddlery Pocket Max, and combined with trousers about 2" larger in the waist than you would ordinarily wear for dress, having properly shaped deep pockets, like the Duluth Trading Co. Middle Management Chinos, worn with their side clip suspenders, the gun doesn't "print" and can be always with you.

Spare ammo carries well in a CountyComm Rev2 zippered key case.

https://countycomm.com/collections/whats-new/products/zipper-key-pouch-by-maratac

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 21 May 2018

I am going to offer an idea on how that original revolver came to have a shortened barrel - possibly someone fired it with an obstruction of some sort in the part of the barrel that is now missing.  This bulged the barrel, to salvage the gat, a long-ago smith shortened the barrel and moved the front sight back, or made a new front sight. 

Reasonable to think this?  What to you guys say?

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Ed Harris posted this 21 May 2018

That's as plausible an explanation as any.  Entirely possible. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 22 May 2018

When I went through the Ohio Peace Officer's Academy, in 1970, we had some old time cops who were required to go also. This was the first class to learn about "Miranda" rights. One old detective had a 2"  Dick Special. On shooting day, the instructor had to open the cylinder with a mallet and pound out the corroded cases. The barrel and front of the cylinder were compacted with pocket link and "stuff". If the cylinder would have turned, the old colt would have blown up.

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M3 Mitch posted this 24 May 2018

I have never understood that mentality.  A guy that is so disinterested in his gat, probably should not be armed.   But I have read about it many times before. 

Reminds me of Uncle Jeff: "You are no more armed because you possess a gun, than you are a musician because you possess a violin"

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