Location Of Flier In Shot String

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  • Last Post 06 January 2020
tlkeizer posted this 31 December 2019

 Greetings,

     With all the development of "flier" data, I was wondering if many track just where the flier was positioned in the shot string such as first, last, or some wheres in between.  I will leave flier definition to the shooter as some will consider a flier out of the main group by less than a tenth of an inch and others out over an inch or two at 50, 100, or more yards.  Part of the wondering on this is based on my M1 shooting.  I bought an M1 through the CMP with new Citrion barrel, .308 caliber, and virtually have yet to get an 8-round group without a flier.  When I had my M1A I had a tack driver load using Speer 130 grain hollow points, not the same with this rifle.

     Thinking the clips might be the cause, I have shot groups checking after each shot, and no consistency where I thought maybe the last round with ejecting the clip may be the reason.  Nope, the string location in the groups varied.  Thinking the clips may still be the culprit, I have shot groups without the clip.  Same basic results.  I have shot groups tracking which clips were used, and using the same clip for groups; shooting on and off sand bags, changing sand bag configuration, same results.  All these were shot with jacketed bullets, various powders, bullets and charges.  A friend bedded the barrel, better groups, still those pesky outliers (still heart of caribou, not bunny rabbit).

    Now, with cast bullets, I find the worst shot in a group does not come at the same location in the order of shots fired.  I have started watching that, and may start recording for most groups with other data.  I also usually fire a fouling shot before group shooting.  Grip pressure, sand bags configuration, where the forearm is gripped and how, I know all of these makes a difference.  Heat, heat waves, eye focus with or without scope, attention to sight picture especially with iron sites.  I know for me fatigue and eye strain play a part in flier shots as I don't stay aggressive in sight picture after a while and need to remind myself to not get lazy.

     Anyway, something I think about time to time especially when trying to find "the load" for my particular M1.  I searched the forum and did not find this particular tracking so thought I would create a discussion just in case anyone else is interested.

Have a Happy New Year all.

TK

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John Alexander posted this 01 January 2020

TK,

Looks like it is flier discussion time. See adjacent thread.

Of course IF the flier is caused by something specific it might be in the same position in the string making up the group each time. If you weren't firing a fouling shot you might find the first shot a flier often.  If you are old and shooting ten or twenty shot groups I would bet on the flier coming near the end of the string. 

Judging from what you have already checked, I would bet, and give odds, that you won't find the position in the shot string of the flier because there is nothing in particular causing the flier.  Eight shots go down range. some will land closer to the middle of the group some further out. (think of the bell curve representing a distribution.) one of the shots in the tail of the distribution curve will be the worst shot. One has gotta be the worst.  That will be your flier. In this situation (no clean bore at start or fatigue fogging your eye on the last -- or other something wrong with the shot) trying to find the position in the string of the flier will be a futile chase.

If you have some of the groups your tackdriver M1A1 shot you will see a flier (by the percentage out of the worst shot) in almost all those groups as well.  It is just that were much smaller and so the fliers didn't seem as bothersome.

I don't know if looking at it this way is helpful or not but it is easier for me to understand what is happening with fliers.

John

 

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RicinYakima posted this 01 January 2020

TK,

Not what you are looking for, but I will relate what I have been told. I shot High-Power back when the DCM and NRA were running the game and used the M1. We were coached to load the first round from the clip in a specific way, so the full force of the main spring seated the cartridge. We were told unequal "drive in force" would cause flyers. I was not a good enough shot to prove or disprove any of this, barely shooting 700.

In cast bullet matches, I find I shoot better as the day goes on; not as excited to be there, forcing myself to focus on the now of making the shot, seems to do better.

Ric

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John Carlson posted this 01 January 2020

I've also chased the "flier" issue for some years.  Shooting several 03A3s, half a dozen different bullets, at least 4 different powderts, different scopes, etc etc etc.  Once shot a 96 point target with 8 x's.  One in the 8 ring at 2, one in the 8 ring at 7.  Got out the Tikka 223 with an identical scope on it shooting jacketed bullets.  Shot at the same target, same scope power setting, same day.  15 rounds inside the 10 ring, 11 in the x ring.  I don't think the problem was me.

Working off some of John Alexander's experiences I have recently tried shooting a few jacket bullets in my cast guns, including some at cast bullet velocities.  Not nearly enough to draw conclusions but so far in has reinforced my belief that my problems stem from something between when I put the lead/alloy in the pot and when I chamber the round.  I am convinced that sorting bullets much beyond rejecting those with visible flaws and those who's weights are at the outer edges of the bell curve is no help.  I shoot all my practice rounds over a chronograph which has shown no correlation whatever.

In that other discussion, the possibility that lost gas checks might be the problem was mentioned. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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Bud Hyett posted this 02 January 2020

Lost gas checks from the base while the bullet was on the way to the target was once a problem. When I started casting, the Lyman slip-on gas check was all that was available in the local gun shop for all calibers other than .30. I was experimenting with 6 mm and .45 rifle, I prevailed on the salesman to order Hornady. (I sometimes think Freeland's was not ordering Hornady gaschecks until  the entire stock of Lyman was sold.)

We would find Lyman gas checks on the ground in front of the benches to just in front of the targets at 200 yards. Also, digging the bullets out of the backstop would find some bullets with the gascheck still on.

This caused us to experiment with gaschecks comparing the Hornady crimp-on to the Lyman slip-on. The experiment was soon stopped. The problem was one never knew where the Lyman would slip off and spending a half-hour per shot looking for the gascheck was non-productive. The answer was to insist on Hornady gaschecks. 

 Default; use Hornady crimp-on gaschecks. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Ross Smith posted this 02 January 2020

Bud: What are Gator checks? crimp or snap or something?

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Bud Hyett posted this 02 January 2020

Gator checks are crimp-on. They have a slight ridge on the inside of the gascheck like Hornady that hooks into the bullet when you size. I ordered 2,000 from NOE to give them a try. and have yet to get to the range for a structured firing test. My testing so far is sizing a few and trying to pull the gascheck off, they hold on tightly., 

Note: One thing that I miss from the days at the Windhill Range is the ability to dig out bullets from the backstop without someone complaining, Today at the club ranges, you get yelled at for holding up the line.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Ross Smith posted this 04 January 2020

Thanks Bud, I get mine straight from gator, sageoutdoors.com. Nice knowledgeable folks to deal with.

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shootcast posted this 06 January 2020

A gas check that comes off a bullet in flight could cause a flyer. While shooting over a chrony with both Hornady & gator checks I have had them hit the chrony. Not often but they can come off. For the past few years I have been making checks from aluminum sheeting. (30 cal.)  These only have a tight slip fit. Basically they feel like they are crimped by the sizing die but can be forced off. Any bullet pulled from a case will leave the check in the neck.  I’m not the shooter many of you are. My best score with home made checks so far is 386. I didn’t do any better with store bought. Aluminum being lighter than copper may depart with less of a problem. 

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