Reloading powder

  • 356 Views
  • Last Post 3 weeks ago
  • Topic Is Solved
makpeter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey shooters,

I am starting reloading cast bullets and found load data, now my question is

Can i use an other powder but with the same burn rate?

Like 5 grains  Lovex D060 or 5 grains Winchester WC296 or 5 grains Alliant 2400

Maybe a stupid question but need to know

 

Thanks

 

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Squid Boy posted this 3 weeks ago

The short answer is just because they line up on the chart doesn't mean they are the same. Cartridge dimensions and bullet weights all make a difference. Use the data you have and follow it closely. Don't start experimenting until you have some experience. What is it that you are loading? There may be guys here with the exact experience the the cartridge you need. Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • BudHyett
RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

Agree with Squid Boy, the rate is determined inside a testing "bomb" and doesn't not account for rate of burn changes as pressure goes up. The classic is Hercules Blue Dot that 30 years ago was discovered to be a good preforming powder at 20,000 CUP. And that is as high as Hercules ever tested it for pressure (same as all their shot gun powders). When folks started loading it up to 357 pressures, guns started getting loose real quick and sticking cases. Over 20,000 CUP pressure went up very very quickly and every shot was a proof plus load. All of this is in the old Handloader Magazine by a fellow named Clay Harvey. HTH

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • BudHyett
  • M3 Mitch
John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

If we are talking about loads listed as maximum or even 70 percent of maximum I would agree with Squid Boy and Ric.

However, if we are talking about 5 grains in your Howa in 223 or 22-250 with a 70 grain cast bullet as I think you are, the short answer is yes.

Powders with similar burn rates as published by Hodgdon, Western, etc can be safely substituted at the very low pressure levels caused by five grains of powder in a modern rifle in those chambering.  The load may be unsatisfactory because of poor ignition, unburned powder or fouling problems but shouldn't be a safety problem. 

At the very low level of 5 grain for these calibers I believe you will may have better luck with burn rates faster than WC 296 and closer to Bullseye, TiteGroup, 231 etc.

I have been doing such things in 222s and 223s for about 60 years and have never seen any indication of excessive pressure. My match cases used for such loads are on their 55th reload.

John

Attached Files

BudHyett posted this 3 weeks ago

I agree with Ric, the burn rate can change with the increase in pressure. Especially with double-base powders where the deterrent chemicals that control burn rate are set for lower pressures. Pressure and heat are intro-controvertible. When a powder is a shotgun powder, it is tailored for a lower pressure limit than a handgun powder.

I know this from personal experience in a .357 Herrett and 200 grain bullets. Working up to the listed maximum pressure in a T/C Contender, the gun showed high pressure sign three grains below listed maximum with Herco. Going to Reloder #7 gave the pressure signs at the listed maximum. Difference in chambers (custom versus T?C factory) or different powder lot numbers could also be factors.

Over the years, I've learned the hard way to read the powder description and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. I have blown up one rifle from SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect) with reduced loads. IMR 4227 in a .308 Winchester with a SAECO #315 set with .015 witness mark on the nose to show it set in the lands. Savage said they had never seen an action with that level of destruction that held the bolt. A testament to the Savage 112 action design.

Country boy from Western Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
  • M3 Mitch
BudHyett posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey shooters,

I am starting reloading cast bullets and found load data, now my question is

Can i use an other powder but with the same burn rate?

Like 5 grains  Lovex D060 or 5 grains Winchester WC296 or 5 grains Alliant 2400

Maybe a stupid question but need to know

 

Thanks

 Winchester 296 comes with a warning to only use in full power loads.

I saw a Remington 700 Varminter in.308 Winchester using a reduced load of 296 blown up to where two men with 2X4's against the bolt and one man with a big hammer to pound the bolt open. Light continuous taps increasing in effort finally opened the bolt without braking the weld. 

Country boy from Western Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest

Attached Files

makpeter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey , For me it is indeed for shooting. 225-70-RN found load from 5grain to 5,5 grain titegroup. The powder is hard to find so i was thinking take Lovex D060 5grain and see

Attached Files

David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 3 weeks ago

Titegroup is not that hard to find, Grafs has it in all offerings.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/search?keywords=titegroup

Also you did not state where your data is from. If the internet, I would stay away from it until you had years of experience. As many manuals new and old as you can afford is well worth it. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 3 weeks ago

Yipes !! . I must be living on borrowed time. IMR 4227 has been my powder for reduced cast loads in the .308 for over fifteen years. As well as the 30-06, 7x57 Mauser and others. Buy eight pound jugs at a time. Pretty sure that I have burned easily over thirty pounds of the stuff and haven't blowed myself up yet..

 

R.  

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
makpeter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey David

Sorry but i live in Belgium - Europe anf here it is very hard to find powders that are in the Lyman and i have only the 48the edition

That is te reason why i try to find other load data for other powders like Vihtavuori and Lovex

Greetings

 

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 3 weeks ago

makpeter

 

"Can i use an other powder but with the same burn rate?

 

"Like 5 grains  Lovex D060 or 5 grains Winchester WC296 or 5 grains Alliant 2400"

 

"Maybe a stupid question but need to know"

 

 

That's not a stupid question at all. It's an intelligent one when it comes to charges and varieties of gunpowder. I have an idea of what I would do in your situation but hesitate to post it. 

If you haven't already, why not email those European and the US powder companies with your dilemma and maybe find out which powders can be cross referenced ?  They would surely be the people who would know. 

 

R.

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

makpeter,

Sorry about the mistake in my last post I forgot you are shooting the 70 grain bullet.

SEE is a worry because it seems to strike randomly.  Most authorities say it is limited to reduced charges of slow burning powders.  There have been very rare blowups reportedly with faster powders where it could have been SEE. I think it is safe to say that the most danger to cast bullet shooters using reduced loads of fast to medium burn rate powders is from double charges or other mistakes in the powder charge or a bullet obstructing the bore. Better to worry about those in my opinion.

If small charges of fast burning pistol powder caused SEE more often than being hit by a falling airplane Mr.Dupraz, I, most cast bullet shooters, and most pistol shooters would have already have had it happen to them.

For what it's worth, I have used small charged of Vihtavuori 320 and 330 in 222s and 223s with 70 grain cast bullets with good results. 

John

Attached Files

makpeter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey,

I did email them but because i cast bullet 225-70-RN the answer is

As long they don't test it properly they won't give load data

Gtz

Attached Files

BudHyett posted this 3 weeks ago

Which cartridge?

I run samples through QuicklLoad for ,223 Remington with the Lyman 57 grain bullet, the results show low pressure and 1,000 to 1,200 feet-per-second for velocity. The pressure is so low that I fear there will be unburned powder in the barrel. 

The best results are for Alliant 2400.

While QuickLoad is a simulation, it does give an idea of what is there. My results from QuickLoad closely approximate firing tests at the range. I even figured out how to simulate breech-seating with QuickLoad and the results match the results in target at 100 and 200 yards.

 

Country boy from Western Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 3 weeks ago

John posted 

"If small charges of fast burning pistol powder caused SEE more often than being hit by a falling airplane Mr.Dupraz, I, most cast bullet shooters, and most pistol shooters would have already have had it happen to them."

 

Whew !!! That's a relief. I know that I won't live forever but surely don't want to hurry things up any either.

 

R. 

 

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
Squid Boy posted this 3 weeks ago

makpeter, please tell us the cartridge you are working with. Many of us have excellent computer programs that can compare powders. My understanding is that Lovex D032-03 is much closer to TightGroup than D060 but again those positions are subject to a number of other factors. Please give us all the details of what you are doing will help a lot. By the way Belgian Grimbegen dark beer is the best. Thanks, Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
  • makpeter
Close