Several 410 loading questions

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  • Last Post 05 June 2019
zhughes posted this 03 June 2019

Hi all,

I've been loading pistol and rifle on blue equipment for a few years.

I picked up a break open .410 a couple weeks ago. I don't plan on shooting it a lot but I would like to work up some loads for it just because it's a new caliber for me to tinker with.

With that said, I've seen some cheap ways to reload without a press online which is the route I will go.
I don't need a $200 press to hobby load maybe a couple hundred rounds a year.

Since this is my first dive into shotshell loading I've got a few questions, so here goes:

- It seems like there are a bunch of different types of wads - when looking at reloading data manufacturers usually call out a specific was brand/model. How much does this really matter? Could I just pick up whatever's cheapest and roll with it? I wonder if this is similar to a debate around primer brands - everyone says you need to work up loads with different brand primers but I use the exact same load data with whatever primer brand is on sale. I've used Winchester, Sellier & Bellot and CCI and have never had a noticeable difference

- The same question above but with hull brands. Does posted load data using a Winchester AA shell really differ that much vs say, a Remington hull assuming both are the same length?

- I've read you do and do not need to resize. Which is correct? I only have one .410, break open at that, with no intentions on purchasing another. I would think I wouldn't need to?

- I've read where folks are using cardboard and felt instead of plastic wads. What's the purpose of the felt? What if you used an extra layer of cardboard instead of felt? Would cardboard vs plastic wad change your load data?

- Can you purchase rifled slug projectiles or does anyone make a mold for them?

 

Thanks!

 

 

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JimmyDee posted this 03 June 2019

Hulls bring the biggest differences: base material, base height, hull material thickness, and length overall can be different -- and that means internal capacity can be very different.  Next, some wads won't fit in some hulls; some wads are too loose in some hulls.

Fiber cards, paper cards, and felt are used over powder and over shot to separate components, cushion shot, and bring the payload to a height where you can get a good roll crimp or star crimp on the shell.

How much difference does it make?  Lot's on downrange performance.  Patterns really suffer if the shot's moving too fast or too slow.

I would guess that the 410 is more sensitive to differences than larger bores but I'm not sure.

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Coydog posted this 03 June 2019

Hulls are of different makes have different base on them.

  It would be best to get the Lyman shot shell manual it will let you know all you ask. Also will show the different in your hulls.As for shooting the same rounds in just the same gun I think you will be ok .As long they are able to be chamber . Like Jimmy stated about the different in wads. Some you can get by with some you can not because of the hull that is used. Primers you can use what you gt as long they are the ones you do your test with  from the start. Work your  loads up and go from there. also check your pattern .As for slugs it depends on the chock of your barrel, Some will take certain type of slug  from the factory. some other will not work like in full chock. I know Ed Harris knows more about it .He had explain to me in the past about it . Hope he can give his advice on this also.

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Rich/WIS posted this 03 June 2019

Check Ebay for 410 conversion kits for MEC 600 and find a set.   Ebay,  reloading forums or gun shows for a used MEC 600 and install the die set.  I load for 410 on a MEC 600 and having the right tools makes it a simple process.  Follow the load recommendations in a good manual, the 410 is a small hull and is less forgiving of mixing components.  Even with the high price of shot the 410 is a lot cheaper to shoot than buying factory ammo.  The loading manuals will tell you what components go with what hull and in the meantime buy the brand you can reload for when you're ready.

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Dale53 posted this 03 June 2019

Most shotguns have very low pressure limits compared to rifles or even some pistols. It is IMPERATIVE that you follow EXACT loading data. Swapping one wad for another can easily exceed the pressure limits of your shotgun. I shot competitive trap and skeet for many years. I have been standing alongside shooters who have ruined their expensive shotguns on more than one occasion. Using the wrong wad can drastically change the loading density and THAT can greatly increase the pressure. The converse is also true - decreasing the loading data, can cause bloopers which can leave a load in the barrel to be disastrous when the next shot is fired. Again, I have seen it happen on more than one occasion...

The savings of buying a wad different than the loading data calls for will pale alongside the loss of a fine gun.

Having said that, if you follow the data from a good loading manual, loading shotgun shells can be very satisfying. 

The suggestion to get the Lyman shotshell reloading manual is a GOOD one. Just follow it religiously and you will find it rewarding.

FWIW

Dale53

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GP Idaho posted this 03 June 2019

zhugges:  First, I'll give you an Email address for a company I do business with, they produce some nice slug moulds. I own the 410 slug mould that is the down-sized clone of the Lyman sabot slug and it works well out of my brake barrel 410. www.SvarogHunt.ru  Their out of Russia so shipping takes about four to six weeks. If you would like to buy some slugs or any other shotgun reloading components a good source is  www.ballisticproducts.com . Secondly, don't start reloading for shotguns until you have educated yourself fully. It is not at all like reloading for rifle or pistol. Swapping components around WILL lead to disaster. Please get a Lyman load manual and read up on the craft before you do MAJOR damage. Gp

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Ed Harris posted this 03 June 2019

Ed Harris on Loading .410 All-Brass Shells

I thought a brief how-to-do-it on loading all-brass .410s would be helpful. I've successfully done this, fire-forming from .303 British, as well as 9.3x74R German and more recently using Magtech .410 all-brass shells from Midway. Load data, wads and assembly/crimping technique are a bit different from using modern plastic shells and wads.

In break-open shotguns, all-brass cases are easily made by fire-forming from .303 British brass, which is cheap and plentiful. Charge the case with ten grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotshell powder. The powder type isn't important, almost anything you have around the shop will work. Push a cotton ball down onto the powder, fill the case up to the shoulder with Cream of Wheat, then press a Gulf wax plug into the case mouth. Fire-form the case pointing the muzzle straight up. The resulting case will be 2.25" in length. Cases should fire-form perfectly without splits on the first pop if they are mouth annealed first. Cases which have been reloaded as rifle rounds several times absolutely must be annealed first!  A quickie on how to anneal rifle brass: 

With Magtech brass use, 15.4 grains of #2400 powder, thrown from the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, using the rotor #19. Place a Buffalo Arms .44 vegetable fiber 1/16” card over the powder, then two Buffalo Arms .44-45 wool felt cushion wads , LIGHTLY oiling the top cushion wad only, applying TWO DROPS of SAE30 weight motor oil with an eye dropper, squishing the wad between the fingers a few times to work it in, then wrapping the wad in a square of TP, squeezing it again between the thumb and forefinger to wick out and absorb the excess oil. This aids in reducing leading when no plastic shot sleeve is used.

A .45 Schofield case holds half an ounce of lead shot to solder up a dip measure. For birdshot fill the case to within 1/8” of the case mouth, insert another 1/16” card and glue in place with Elmer's. You can get a bit more shot in using the old fashioned card and fiber wad column, but my cylinder-bore gun throws better patterns using the Federal No. 410SC (1/2 oz. Skeet) shot cup over the card, pouring the shot into that and closing the shell by crimping (or gluing with Elmer's) a .36 cal. card inside the top of the shot cup, as shown in the photo below.

If you have a Lee 7.62x54R Russian or .308 Win. seater die, you can make a more finished-looking crimp, by inserting a blank Lyman 450 sizer top punch into the seater die plug, adjusting the seating stem to position the top card, below the die shoulder, then using a .44 cal. card to fit the all-brass shell, or .36 cal. to fit inside the Federal shotcup if using that wad. You want to hold the overshot card slightly below the case mouth, as you bump the case mouth against the die shoulder to form a nicely rounded, professional-looking crimp. See the photo below.

If loading buckshot, insert a card firmly over the powder, as you did before. A Federal No.410SC plastic shotcup is used as the buckshot container and the fiber filler wads are not needed. The plastic shot cup MUST NOT be used in all-brass cases without an over-powder card, because its diameter is too small to seal the case interior. Omitting the card results in powder leaking past the wad, causing “bloopers.” After firmly seating a Federal No.410SC plastic wad, drop four 00 buck into the shot cup, then add one cast .390” round ball cast of SOFT lead on top of the stack. Adjust the seater so that the top ball is crimped positively into the end of the shell. Alternately you can load FOUR pellets of 000 buck in the shot cup, or the same number of .390" cast round balls in the brass shell with fiber wad column and no plastic shot cup. 

Four .39" cast round balls total 350 grains or 0.8 of an ounce. Each pellet at 25 yards has 150 ft.-lbs. of energy, about the same as a .380 ACP pocket pistol at the same distance. If the .390 balls fall through your gun's choke and they pattern well, the improvement in energy is dramatic! I use the same 15.4 grain charge of #2400 in my gun, but it is, admittedly a "hot" load. I suggest reducing the charge to 12 grains, using Little Dandy Rotor #15 and work up cautiously. OR substitute IMR or H4427 powder for the #2400.

The 1951 Ideal Handbook provides data with #2400 powder for .410 shells with conventional wad columns. It suggests thickness of the filler wad(s) should be not less than 1/2 bore diameter and not more than bore diameter. Minimum filler wad thickness in the 410 bore is 0.205 inches.

A .444 Marlin sizer die with Lee No.5 shell holder can be used to resize brass cases if necessary.  Prime cases with large pistol primers. The RCBS Little Dandy Rotors #19 measures the appropriate charge of Alliant #2400. Thumb over powder card into case mouth, and slide firmly onto the powder using a dowel. Similarly seat the filler wad(s), or plastic shotcup, if used. Add shot and top card or buckshot. Glue top card or crimp, if a suitable die is available.  That’s all there is to it.

Two all-brass .410s, one with birdshot and plastic shot sleeve, another with buckshot, at right is a .44-40 cartridge shown for size comparison.

 Attachment:  410All-BrassShot&Ballwith44-40.jpg

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 03 June 2019

Most shotguns have very low pressure limits compared to rifles or even some pistols. It is IMPERATIVE that you follow EXACT loading data. Swapping one wad for another can easily exceed the pressure limits of your shotgun. I shot competitive trap and skeet for many years. I have been standing alongside shooters who have ruined their expensive shotguns on more than one occasion. Using the wrong wad can drastically change the loading density and THAT can greatly increase the pressure. The converse is also true - decreasing the loading data, can cause bloopers which can leave a load in the barrel to be disastrous when the next shot is fired. Again, I have seen it happen on more than one occasion...

The savings of buying a wad different than the loading data calls for will pale alongside the loss of a fine gun.

Having said that, if you follow the data from a good loading manual, loading shotgun shells can be very satisfying. 

The suggestion to get the Lyman shotshell reloading manual is a GOOD one. Just follow it religiously and you will find it rewarding.

FWIW

Dale53

 

Amen to all that.  Shotshell loading is not like rifle or pistol.  The only thing you have a free hand with is shot size.  You do indeed have to use the specified hull, primer, powder type and amount, and wad.  While I have not seen anybody blow up a gun, I am sure it happens.  I am sure people have got away with substitutions, but, that is not recommended.  I mean, the odds are heavily in your favor in Russian roulette, but, I don't recommend that either. 

For small production, you may find the Lee Loader to be what you want.  Although.  Most people who have the room, end up with a press for each gauge they load for.  Unlike centerfire turret presses and Dillons, gauge change-over for shotshell presses tends to be labor intensive, and you end up with a considerable box of spare parts that you need to store and not lose. 

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Squid Boy posted this 04 June 2019

Swapping components is a problem in any shot shell but worse in the 410. They run at considerably higher pressures and small changes make big differences. Your biggest issue is getting everything to fit together and crimp properly for consistent performance. It is not the same as loading a rifle or pistol cartridge. I load a lot of shotgun and previous advice on buying a good loading manual and an economy loader is the same that I would give you. Don't try to go super cheap, you will be disappointed. Good luck, Squid Boy  

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Brodie posted this 04 June 2019

Zhughes, 

I would pay heed to what these gentlemen have told you.  When I was shooting competition shot gun I saw men who only changed the primer shoot and eject empty hulls that the bases fell off of when they hit the ground, and that was with only subbing a different primer in 12 guage.

Metalic cartridge loading is like cooking, shotgun loading is similar to baking.  You can substitute ingredients in a recipe, but you can not substitute any ingredients in a formula.  Baking recipes are formulas.  Change ingredients and the bread won't rise, and the cake is inedible.

 

 

B.E.Brickey

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max503 posted this 04 June 2019

I have loaded 410 with a Lee kit. It's been so long I don't remember much about it, but I do know the loads would kill squirrels. Maybe you could find one of those kits. Not sure if they still sell them.

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Coydog posted this 05 June 2019

max503  Lee dose not make the reloading kit anymore for 410 or any other for shotgun.. I have one myself, also one for 12ga . Too bad they not because it work out for someone that did not shoot much and on a low budget. also can take it any where with you also.  There is some company out there that dose make something like it .I think it is not sure out of Russia that make some. but need to do a search on it . 

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Squid Boy posted this 05 June 2019

There are a couple of Lee Loaders for 410 up on eBay but pricey. I use a 600 Jr. and it makes a nice shell. Getting a good crimp on the 410 can be a PITA and having the right tool helps. Squid

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GP Idaho posted this 05 June 2019

Here's a  You Tube instruction video on the 410  Survival loader from X ring USA.

This kit works pretty good.  I like to use the roll crimping tool from BPI as crimps are the hardest thing to get right.  Really all you need to load just a few 410 shells is a means to remove the old primer and a wooden dowel of the proper size to seat a new primer and press down the wads and a roll crimping tool.  All this is available on ebay.  Gp

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GP Idaho posted this 05 June 2019

Sorry guys. Both my posted video and Ed's are coming up unavailable on my machine. Might just be the way my virus protection works.  Anyway the 410 loading kit is available from  thexringusa@yahoo.com  Gp

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Coydog posted this 05 June 2019

The videos is block for some reason On my also ,

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Coydog posted this 05 June 2019

I had just check the videos on You tube and they come up unavailable.I copy the URl on here and check on there 

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