Shooting Ability Wins over Expensive Equipment

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John Alexander posted this 27 October 2018

Back in September when I wrote an answer to Pat's question about the results of the 2018 CBA nationals I drew a blank about who won production class.  That was strange because it was one of the more notable accomplishments of the tournament and deserves a bit of celebration.

Bob Haufschild won the championship for Production class which, allows varmint weight (12 pounds limit) factory rifles. And he did it  shooting his trusty Springfield 03a3 military rifle with a 6X scope. To give an indication of the level of competition Bob's combined 100 and 200 five shot group average for forty shots was 1.08 MOA. His competitors were  using Remington and Savage varmint rifles and high magnification target scopes.

 This demonstration of riflemanship by Bob, along with Dan Hudson's championship win in Hunting Rifle class a couple of year's ago while shooting a economy grade 7-08 Savage hunting rifle and also using a 6X scope, show clearly that shooter ability counts for much more than the top of the line equipment.

I mention this because we sometimes hear on this and other forums that CBA competition has degenerated to an "equipment race" with rifles that bear no resemblance to practical hunting rifles nor that many ordinary folks can afford. We do have classes for specialized target rifles which is a legitimate form of sport in itself.  But the complaint simply isn't true for our Production, Hunting Rifle and Military classes which are limited to typical varmint, hunting, or military surplus rifles.

So if you are thinking it might be fun to shoot with other CB shooters in our postal or shoulder to shoulder matches but you have only your hunting rifle and don't want to spend a lot of money, don't be deterred -- give it a try.

John

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Scearcy posted this 27 October 2018

A couple of our Region 5 "Production Class" records are still held by Wally Enga shooting a Mosin 7.65x54 with a 6X scope.

When I first started shooting matches 20 years ago a very good shooter told me that I would never get any better until I started practicing. Not on blue bird days but in the wind, rain, and mirage just like one has to in the matches. Use a wind flag, watch the mirage, record ALL groups over time. There are no alibis or flyers that don't count in a match.  Don't put you best group in your billfold. Instead put your worst group right above your press. Matches aren't won by shooting the smallest group. Matches are won by shooting the smallest BAD group. Check the math.

Jim

 

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2kbill posted this 27 October 2018

I watched Bob's performance at the Nationals, it was truly amazing.  Not only in Production, he also shot Hunter Rifle, and won the Mil Rifle Mod Scope class in the regional contest on Thursday!

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GWarden posted this 28 October 2018

John

Agree 100% that the shooter ability is one factor we don't want to talk about much. A few times I have brought up about the ability of the person behind the gun, get either no comments or once in awhile one agrees. If we spent as much time on how we as shooters can become better shots as we do on having the latest "whatever" or other topics we would no doubt all see our abilities and score/groups improve. Practice does improve, as long as were are practicing to improve, not just shooting and doing the same wrong techniques over and over. My shooting mentor told me that insanity is continuing to doing the same mistakes over and over, we can certainly apply that to our shooting at times. So, what are things that makes a great shooter?

Bob

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JeffinNZ posted this 28 October 2018

Which is why I find it so frustrating that the new 200y range at my club is limited to rifles with minimum 9X scope and excludes rounds such as the Hornet.  The executive appear to believe there to be a correlation between equipment and ability.  To even get access a shooter has be to able to shoot a 5 shot 3 inch group off the bench at 100m so to make a point I qualified (easily) with my .310 Cadet shooting cast, heel bullets and open sights. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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John Alexander posted this 28 October 2018

"So, what are things that makes a great shooter?"

Very good question Bob. I wish we could get the great shooters in the CBA to open up and write on that subject. Over the years I have sometimes written the different class champions at our nationalsI urging a article for TFS but Jim Scearcy is the only shooter that has responded with an article.

 Since benchrest shooting isn't a very athletic activity there isn't too much to learn from watching. It is clear that good shooters are focused intently on their shooting - not much coffee drinking or chit chat although we once had a shooter go sound to sleep at his bench.  I think he had finished the relay. I have noticed that a lot of good shooters are very patient in waiting for their condition to return however a few top notch shooters are done in the first few minutes of the time allowed.

One technique used by many JB benchrest shooters to good effect is rapid fire shooting. I have never seen a cast bullet shooter use this technique to the extent of some JB shooters. Some top shooters claim to be able to fire 5 precise shots in 10 seconds and many do it in less than half a minute with single shot rifles. This technique obviously reduces the effects of condition changes. For our more wind sensitive cast bullets this technique is something to think about. 

 

John 

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RicinYakima posted this 28 October 2018

Jeff, Our public range has metal targets from 350 yards to 685 yards on the "long range". In order to qualify, you have to take a $50 class, take a written test  and shoot 2 MOA from prone with bipod at 600 yards. Why? because a group of "precision rifle" shooters wanted to reduce the use of the range. So even thought there are bench rests and tables you can't use them. Only the "best" shooters in their Three Gun matches now get to use that range. Ric

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lotech posted this 28 October 2018

Regarding scope power, I think many that criticize 6x have no experience with that level of magnification. 

Regrettably, we have a significant number of shooters today that think high scope powers and very light triggers will compensate for a lack of skill. 

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RicinYakima posted this 28 October 2018

John, I don't know what makes a great shooter. I know some of the mechanics of how they shoot and what they do, but others try to duplicate their methods and fail. If you want opinions, I have plenty of those! Ric

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Scearcy posted this 28 October 2018

Like many athletic activities directed at accuracy your follow through on the bench is essential to consistency. Here is one indicator of a good follow through. I discovered this on my own but subsequently have been told by others that it is not a secret at all. If you are shooting on a humid sunny morning with the sun at your back, you will often be able to follow the flight of the bullet through your scope.  I discovered this practicing with an accurate 22 LR and then found that the same phenomena is present with cast bullets. If you can follow the  passage of the bullet all of the way to the target, your trigger control is good and you are definitely not flinching.

One way to practice this is to try to watch the bullet hole appear in the target. I am obviously assuming optics here. If you have to search for your bullet hole, you may well have a flinch which is disrupting your follow through.

Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 October 2018

... the best shots are 14 year old girls who have never shot before ... they listen to their dad's advice  and assume that all their shots will go into the same hole, .... so they take their time, and with their youthful eyes and ladies' smooth muscle control proceed to watch their shots go into the same hole ...  

... we older foggy-eyed jerky men cannot quite do that, but the one part of that secret recipe we can grab onto is that we can

BELIEVE that those shots are going to join together and therefore give EACH shot the respect it craves ... then it will try to please you and do the best it can do .... and make we shooters to shoot the best WE can be ....

**************

when you set down at that bench ( or lane ) , allow yourself to be a bit sinfully egotistic and even feel a little sorry for those competing against you ... maybe give them some useful hints right after you beat those below your skill and luck level  ....  time enough after the match to be your true humble self  ....  

with that mindset, you can now demand that you respect your own skill ..... and with PRACTICE you will develop a SHORT list of self-imposed rules that you will follow in order to attain the automatic CONSISTENCY that will improve your results   ... and yes, SKILL  ....

****************

PRACTICE: ... often, but not a lot ... 10 shots a day is sufficient ...  quality, not quantity .... the idea is to convince your inner mind that each shot counts ....  and do this without your buddy watching you ... or your wife or kids .... do take along your favorite dog if allowed ...  you can ask it for what you did wrong if you blow a shot ... it will probably respond that you didn't think that shot was important ...

remember that you are trying to get your inner brain to do all the routine actual shooting things during a match ... your outer, adrenaline-soaked, more scattered, brain is responsible for watching the range commands, the wind flag calculations,  how many shots are left in your relay box, and the match clock.   in everything else you just watch your subconscious take over and shoot the best you can with the skill and equipment you have accrued so far . 

SHORT list of rules for yourself ... we are talking 3 or 5 here, not so dang many that you freeze during a real match and surrender from confusion before the first shot is fired.  again, your IQ will drop in half in competition, so don't be trying something at the last minute that seems a good idea at the time.  as you get better, you will find that it really was simpler than you thought when you started .  probably eventually get down to 1 or 2 rules ...  for suggestions, here are some of mine :   touch the rifle the same every shot ...shoot fast, but don't hurry any one shot  .... pull the trigger straight back to a spot about 100 yards behind my back ... don't pay attention to that world-class shooter in the next lane ...   >>> you will develop your own rules, it is all about routine ....   

CONSISTENCY :    did i mention routine ?? ....  i am slightly mystic, so i think of it as " ZEN " .. or " in the zone " ....  it is kind of * pre-loading * your mind ... maybe calling up that sleeping inner guy that actually does the shooting ....( g ) ... while you just watch ....

and that comes with PRACTICE and shooting in as many matches as you can get to ... or even shooting against your self ... quality not quantity ... but i repeat myself ... as you should as you practice ... cool ...

ken

 

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Brodie posted this 29 October 2018

Ken,

Fourteen year old girls are not party to the "American Boy Syndrome" .  This little talked about but incredibly prevalent problems affects most if not all males over the age of the beginning of puberty.  To put it succinctly : All American boys are part John Wayne, Gary Cooper, and Jason Stratham, they can ride, swim, wrestle, shoot, and any other "manly" activity without the benefit of instruction, and if you try to teach them you are probably wrong. 

When I went to work for Jim Wylie at the riding stable connected to Cal. Lutheran College he explained to me how hard it would be to teach these kids to ride.  The easiest are children and women, no ABS (yet).  Then come dancers and actors (used to taking instruction).  Last are young males: they don't listen (ABS), they used too much strength with the horse, and they had a bunch of preconceived about how to do things which were invariably wrong.

If I am teaching someone to shoot I will take a female as a student any time (unless it is my wife).  Girls listen and they usually aren't ego involved. 

Personally, I would love learn more about bench rest technique.  I am really not very good at it.

 

B.E.Brickey

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joeb33050 posted this 30 October 2018

Talent beats training hands down. I spent ~25 years trying to become a decent offhand shooter, trained and coached by great shooters, to little avail. We saw the same talented shooters come, win, and some ,go. Jim Feren is my best example.

 

I shoot from the bench more than 99% of shooters, and at a guess, about 50% of my shots are called "less than perfect", by me, as the gun goes off. Talent wins, I ain't got none.

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John Alexander posted this 30 October 2018

I think Joe is right to a large extent about offhand as well as sitting, kneeling, and even prone to a lesser extent. Of course training helps but only goes so far against natural talent.

I think this principle is minimized but not eliminated in benchrest.  Not so much with the types of rifles that come out of factories. But my guess is that a talented shooter can be equalled by a relative newcomer using the latest benchers equipment and free recoil in a warehouse.  At least it is a hell of a lot easier to come close than with offhand.  Equaling a good wind reader in a match is a whole nuther thing.

John

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John Alexander posted this 30 October 2018

P.S That's why so many of us old geezers with shaky hands, blurry eyes, and slower reactions gravitate to benchrest and making our own bullets. So we can put old age and treachery to good use against talent.

 

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GWarden posted this 02 November 2018

John

For me one of the factors that I see as very important is the shooters attitude. When I am looking through the sights; whether IS or scope and I am just shooting at the center of the bullseye the results are not all that great for me. If I concentrate and actually try to visualize that bullet hitting the center of the bull when I take the shot, much better results. To often we have a good group/score going and we tell ourselves "I will probably throw that last shot- and we do.

 

I was out yesterday at the range and was really concentrating on each shot, and really reading my wind flags. Things started to really fall into place as I concentrated on each shot, and anticipating each shot going in the previous hole when I gently squeezed the trigger. As I took each shot as being the best shot, my groups improved. I was shooting a Rem 700V in .222 at 100yds. I like to shoot 10 shot groups as I feel they give me a better indication of what I am doing. I was not shooting cast but JB. I started one group and things just felt good as I did my part. This was not a overall average with this rifle, but I was testing a load and my second 10 shot group was .457". Other groups were running a bit over .6" for ten shots. I know the stat fellas are going to say than only a couple groups is not a valid indicator. It is a indicator for me as I am interested in what the shooter is able to do with the rifle. Doing the "right thing" over and over in practice shows up with improved scores/groups. I enjoy shooting, but am always trying to improve each time.

Enough of the ramblings.

Bob

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John Alexander posted this 02 November 2018

Bob,

I think you and Ken are right a lot of the difference between a good day and a bad day is what goes on between the ears. 

John

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joeb33050 posted this 06 November 2018

Maybe everybody know this, anyhow here goes.

Bench or offhand, as you attempt to center the sights on the target AND try to make the trigger go off---

In not many seconds you run out of breath, oxygen-and vision begins to tunnel like an iris closing, and blur. You MUST stop and breathe!!

You want the shot to go off, vision blurs, shaking starts and desire for the shot to go off overcomes sense, you yank.

You HAVE TO STOP when the vision or shaking or ?? is affecting the shot. Breathe, look around, then start again.

If I could STOP and start again, I'd reduce group size a lot. Easier said than done; I've been trying to STOP for 40 years. 

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Eutectic posted this 06 November 2018

You must RELAX the last shot in a group is the hardest. You have a record beating group going and there is a 90% chance the last shot will make it a whopper. You have a great score going in the National Match course, only the 25 yard rapid to go. You have aced it many times, it is easy. Then tension  builds up and you know the rest of the story.

I was in college, buried in final exams, no practice for months. Exams over I went to the annual combat championship match. Took my 45 ACP revolver, no chance of winning against the 1911 autos, Just went to have fun, never looked at the scoreboard.

I still have the trophy. 

Steve

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John Alexander posted this 06 November 2018

I have never been very good at bullseye pistol shooting, or any other kind of pistol shooting for that matter, even when young.  But the only time I ever shot a possible in slow fire was after a three month gap in practice and eight weeks of basic training.

As usual more to do with your head than your trigger finger. 

John 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 November 2018

... heh, when i wuz shooting 4-position rimfire ... i was thinking that maybe if i was really tired and therefore didn't care much i could shoot better ... so i stayed up all night before a big match ....  i still go over and over that match to this day .... the only one shot in two years on that rifle team that i missed a bull entirely.  

nowadays i just start 15 minutes before a competition and run my inner self mental preview routine ...  takes that long to get my attention ... heh ...

ken

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shootcast posted this 06 November 2018

You can’t take anything away from a great marksman. But take it one step farther. First shoot a few groups at 200 yards open sights. Then put a 6 power scope and repeat. Then once more time with a 36. Which is the same marksman with the same firearm and ammunition likely to do best with.

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RicinYakima posted this 07 November 2018

Depends upon the reticle in the scope and the target, or the aperture sight. Open sights are at best 1 1/2 MOA even with 20/20. Myself, on the red CBA target, I can shoot better at 200 with a Weaver KT 6X with the fine cross hairs, than my 24 Leupold with dot. Without cross hairs, I have a hard time getting the dot in the center in the white on  red. But again, that is just me.  

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John Alexander posted this 07 November 2018

Since good shooting depends partly on what is going on between the ears various "medicines" have been tried, usually alcohol --some with apparent success.

One of my teammates on an army rifle team awhile back (soon after the trapdoor was abandon as the service rifle) would get so nervous at matches that his scores dropped drastically.  He finally announced that he was going to solve the problem by taking tranquilizers before the next match. On the bus on the way back someone asked how the tranquilizers worked.  He said terrific, I shot worse than ever but I didn't give a crap. 

Shooting has to be kept in perspective.

John

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