SIZING .17 CAL. POWDER COATED BULLETS WITH MY NEW NOE SIZING EQUIPMENT

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mashburn posted this 18 April 2020

I've been getting ready to start firing my .17 cal. rifle cast bullet project. I hope to kill many paper groundhogs with it, in the near future, if it is successful. I had bought NOE sizing equipment in.17 cal. about a year ago and other than setting it up and seeing how it operated, I had never used it. I had 2 different alloys in my cast bullets. I had both PB & GC  bullets. One alloy was wheel weights plus 2% tin. The other was wheel weights. The 2% tin bullets were the ones I wrote about in my powder coating discussion, that I had heck getting them to accept powder.I first sized the wheel weight bullets both gc and pb with not much problem. Then came the 2% tin bullets, they seemed so much harder that the ww bullets and I mean, much harder. The wheel weight bullets, both the pb, going point first, and the gc ones going base first sized without much effort on the lever. Then, it was time for the 2% tin ones. It took much more effort to size them, the pb bullets sized well with quite a bit more effort required that the ww bullets. I started sizing the gas check bullets and could not believe how much more lever force was required. After a couple of bullets I stuck one and after solving that problem, I stuck another. Trying to solve the problem I started sizing the gc's with out a gc point first and then I put on gas checks and run them through base first and never stuck another but if I hadn't done the two process route, I would have stuck them all.

Now here is how the NOE sizing equipment worked out. My first problem is the smallest tube that goes inside the die body is .22 caliber and believe it or not the little .17'a would wad up and hang in the tube and I ruined a couple of bullets before I realized what was happening. I solved this problem by rolling up a thin piece of slick cardboard and inserting that in the .22 tube, it worked fine. I finally did away with the tube and the Lee bullet catcher and just left the die body open and when It got pretty well filled up, I would unscrew it and pour the bullets out. That body will hold a lot of .17 bullets, believe me. The other problem with the NOE equipment is the steel driving rod for plain base bullets worked well but I can't say that for the little aluminum hollow nose bunch for the sharp pointed bullets. The hard bullets that I was speaking of expanded the thin edges of the aluminum nose punch. I rolled them between two flat pieces of steel and got them back to where they should be. All in all, I like the NOE sizing equipment except the aluminum pointed nose punch. I will solve the .22 tube by making a small insert to keep the little pills going up straight I will probably buy more but will be cautious as to what they are made from..

Here is an attest to how tough powder coating is. When taking the stuck gc bullets out, I chucked them up concentric and level in the mill vise and selected a drill bit just a few thousandths smaller that the lead of the bullet. When I drilled the lead out the powder coated jacket stayed intact around the drill.. When I pulled it off the drill, I couldn't believe how tough the little powder cylinder was, it felt like a copper jacket.

Mashburn

 

David a. Cogburn

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Spindrift posted this 18 April 2020

Nice to hear your .17 project is rolling along. Happy shooting!

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mashburn posted this 19 April 2020

Hello Spindrift,

Thanks for you comment. I didn't check the BHN on these problem bullets. I still have some of that alloy in the pot & am going to cast a handful of bullets and do a BHN test on them. They are supposed to be WW'S plus 2% Tin, but after the effort required to size them, I wonder if something else got in the WW ingots. At least that way, my question as to hardness will be solved. I hope to shoot the .17 and my 32-20 with those bullets this week and maybe some 30-30's.I'll still take my Lyman 450 over the NOE. When sizing in the Lyman 450, I lubricate the bullets with RCBS water based case lube, works great. 

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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cfp4570 posted this 19 April 2020

I use the Lee push through sizing dies on some of my bullets after I coat them, and one of my 45 moulds drops out .005" oversize and the effort required to size them is much greater. I lay them in an 8x8 baking pan and give them a light coat of Hornady one shot case sizing lube and it makes them much easier to size.

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Spindrift posted this 19 April 2020

Do you water drop your bullets from the mould?

In case you are, you could reduce the sizing effort by air cooling the bullets. The hardness gained by water dropping will be negated by the PC curing process anyway (using standard curing regimen). 

I use the NOE sizing system a lot. I love how I can get lots of sizing options without breaking the bank. The top punch holder for the ram is brilliant. I use it both for base-first sizing, and to seat gas checks. But the force required is quite a bit more than the Lee sizers, due to different forcing cone, maybe. 

 

Below is a (non-perfect) photo illustrating how I seat checks, using the NOE equipment. In the ram, you see the top punch holder, with a bullet and check. In the press, I have installed a (random) Lee sizer, with the corresponding push rod- retained with a bit of alox, or something. The base of the push rod provides an anvil against which you can squeeze the check. Simple, quick, effective.

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mashburn posted this 20 April 2020

cpf4570,

Thanks for response and information. I have lots of Lee push through dies and even some of the old Lee sizing dies that didn't screw in a press, you just drove the rod down with a hammer or mallet. I have had a Lyman 450 for years and bought the NOE setup about a year ago. I size a lot of my powder coated bullets in the lee dies, mostly because it is so much faster to screw a lee die in a press than to change the dies in the Lyman 450.  I size my powder coated bullets using RCBS water based case lube. I just lay them down on the lube pad and give them a couple of rolls like I do cartridge cases. It works great.

thanks again,

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 20 April 2020

Hello Spindrift,

Thanks for the response, information and photo. The problem bullets of infamy were not water dropped. However the other bunch of bullets were casting experiments from when I first got the NOE mold. Some of them were; water dropped WW's, some were air cooled WW's and some were cast from the military surplus wheel weights that checked between 17 & 18 BHN. These bullets all sized easily and it should have been other way. Like I said last night, I'm going to cast a few bullets from that same alloy and let them set a few days and do a BHN test on them.

Hey, I liked the photo of how you are seating gas checks. My question is, how does this process crimp the check or are you not using crimp on checks. Yes, NOE definitely has some neat sizing equipment.

Thanks again,

Mashburn 

David a. Cogburn

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Spindrift posted this 20 April 2020

Hello, Mashburn!

The process shown in the photo only seats the checks. I then run them through a push-through sizer, base-first.

I started using this trick with some 6,5 bullets, where seating the checks was a bit frustrating (sore fingers). I found it was quick, and I liked the results. So now I just do it that way with most of my GC bullets.

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Shopdog posted this 20 April 2020

I use a small jewelry,C frame press from the 1940's to pre seat GC's on most of the "precision" bullets. Get those bases dead nuts square by scraping(cabinet scraper made from gauge metal) or "gang milled" 5 at a time on the Bridgeport..... then ease on the GC's with the little C frame.

Mashburn,I use torque wrenches that get attached to the Lyman 450 handles...... weld a 3/8" socket down low on factory handle. The beam type TW(torque wrench) is so useful in not only GC seating pressure,but for bumping noses too. You'll VERY quickly understand the yield numbers on you bullets.

Write the yield #'s down and start keeping an eye on them as you process different "lots" of bullets/alloys is a side benefit. It's main use is GC seat pressure and nose bumping.

Once you have your #'s dialed in on the beam style,you can go to a "clicker" TW,where I just dial the torque and pull until the wrench "clicks". Sounds WAY more complicated than it is. You basically are running "blind" during the sizing operation without some form of repeatable measure. The smaller the bullet diameter..... or longer aspect ratio(length vs diameter),the more the TW improves performance.

For example,a short squat 45acp bullet isn't going to "upset" nearly as much as say an RCBS 22-55 with its long-iash

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Shopdog posted this 20 April 2020

Oops,hit the post button...

RCBS 22-55 with it's long,kinda pointy nose. I've been using the torque wrenches now for awhile and won't go back to not using them.

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mashburn posted this 20 April 2020

Hello 
Spindrift,

Thanks for the additional information. This clears things up-very good idea.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 20 April 2020

Hello Shopdog,

I like the torque wrench idea for precision bullets.

Thanks, Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 21 April 2020

Hello Spindrift,

I just seated some gas checks by your method. I had some 170 gr. bore riding gc 30-30 bullets. I had powder coated a few and found that the recesses for the gas check was too small after powder coating. Fortunately I only had a few so I didn't have to scrape corners with a knife for very long. Without any powder coating they were very tight and hard to get a gc seated. I seated them all  by your method and now will powder coat and then run them base first through a sizer. It is nice that NOE and Lyman both have the same stem diameters on their nose punches. Thanks for the tip.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Spindrift posted this 21 April 2020

You’re most welcome!

By the way, powder coated GC-designs without GC might be worth a try. I’ve had some good results with checkless PC- bullets in 30-06 and .223. I’ve found happiness with loads similar to what I’d use if the bullet had a gas check, and conventional lube (or slightly hotter). I have not a huge data set on the subject of checkless PC bullets, but enough to motivate further exploration.

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