Who Loads and Shoots for the .38 S&W (Not Special), .380 Rimmed, etc.

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Ed Harris posted this 17 January 2017

As FYI, now in the Accurate catalog 36-151H is based on the 45-240H1 for the .455 Webley, simply reducing the diameter to .360” with tolerance positive to provide correct fit for .362” cylinder throats as-cast without sizing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 17 January 2019

Here is what the throat-fit of Accurate 36-187H loooks like when chambered and extracted from the .38 S&W

"Lettuce Protector,"  aka The Infamous Bunny Gun or American Rook Rifle:

In 50-50 plumber's lead and wheelweights bullet drops 192-193grains and .362-.363" diameter, which is ideal fit for my S&W Victory .380-200 without sizing, and also fits S&W Terrier Model 32-1.  Must be sized to .358" to enter throats of Colt Police Positive or Ruger. 

John Taylor has the reamer for the .38 S&W Rook Rifle creation, and can also use it to rechamber 9mm Ruger revolver cylinders.  Anybody who would like the reamer print, PM me with your email address and I can send you the .pdf of Dave Manson's drawing. Unable to attach a .pdf to a PM here.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 January 2019

BigMan54,

I expect the "frozen" business was old, oxidized oil which set up like glue.  I picked up a Colt .38 Police Positive cheap that way.

Safe fix is to remove the grips, and place the gun in a shallow tray, or stand in an ammo can, pour over it enough Ed's Red to cover it, and let it soak overnight.  Then disassemble, clean, wipe, reassemble.

I keep a .30 cal. ammo can about 3/4 full of Ed's Red just for that purpose.

Also great for cleaning old loading dies and bullet molds you pick up at gun shows.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 15 January 2019

NOT something to worry about with this Revolver. One of the guns out of Australia about 30yrs ago. This gun had no turn marks on the cylinder. I can't tell you why it was "frozen". Couldn't open it. I disassembled & reassembled it. Worked fine. Couldn't find why it was "frozen. He bought it that way from the gunstore. Half price of a working gun. 

Forgot it. Found it and brought it to me last month. Just one of those weird things. Now I have a box of once fired WIN nickeled toload.   

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2019

Examine the front sight carefully and determine for sure that it was not cut down.  With original sights bullet weight and recoil impulse may affect windage as well as elevation.  Typical example with Aussie Victory Model which likes 36-190T.  Expect 36-187H to be little different. 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 11 January 2019

Ed,

I thank you. I went shooting today with a Buddy who has one of those M&P 5" from WW2, I just fixed it for him. So he had to shoot it. Now he expects me to load ammo for him, all I know how to load is a 148gr swaged WC over 2.0grs of Bullseye. For my Grandma's old H&R breaktop. (Sorry David).

Now with this info I'll make him buy me another bullet mold.

Thanks, Ed   

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2019

Update 9 Jan 2019

Soon to arrive from Accurate, 36-187H.

Design intent is to provide a long nose to exploit the cylinder length of the S&W Victory Models in .380 Mk2, having a long .360"+ cylindrical bore riding portion to align the bullet in the large cylinder throats of the S&W Victory Model as well as the Webley & Scott Mk4 and S&W .38 Regulation Police and Terrier revolvers.  Seating depth is only .275" in .775" long .38 S&W brass for 1.285" overall cartridge length, which fills the cylinder length of these revolvers. 

Will not fit in the Colt .38 New Police or Ruger India Model unless the forepart is sized .358"-ish to fit cylinder throats, which run smaller in those guns.

Also plan to try this as a small game and gallery bullet in my .35/.30-30 rifle, with 8 grains of Bullseye, as the long, parallel  .360" diameter bore-riding forepart will fit the throat of my relined and rechambered 1894 Winchester.

Appropriate charge is 2.1 grains of Bullseye for the British top-breaks and 2.5 grains for S&W Victory and post-1957 S&Ws. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 03 November 2017

My plan is to do more shooting over the winter of a wider sample of factory loads to establish what they really did. 

In .38 S&W I now have a 2" S&W 32-1 Terrier, three 4-inch guns, a Colt Police Positive, Webley & Scott Mark IV and a Ruger India Model, and finally a WW2 S&W Victory Model .380-200 with 5-1/2" barrel. Plan is to chronograph WW2 era. WRA, Western and Remington UMC 146 LRN, also modern R-P, W-W and Fiocchi 146 LRN and 1984 vintage FN .380 Mk2z.

After having established the performancer envelope in various barrel lengths, bore and chamber dimensions and cylinder gaps, I will work up safe loads with TiteGroup and AutoComp in addition to our old standard Bullseye.

I will reshoot several loads tested previously in the Colt and Webley & Scott in the S&W Terrier, the Victory Model and the Ruger.

I'll use the strong Ruger as the test platform to work up loads with TiteGroup and AutoComp as well as Bullseye with the Accurate 36-151H, 36-176 and a new 190-grain bullet I have ordered based on shortening 36-200T to 0.75" OAL with .255 meplat and 0.03 bevel base.

As FYI the Ruger India Model I have was produced in late 1985 while I was QA Manager for Ruger's Newport Operations.  Cylinder gap is 0.004 pass/0.005 hold, cylinder throats .3580", bore .350/groove .357", no different than .38 Special or .357 revolvers produced for contract orders at the time.  My revolver, being of late production was purpose-built .38 S&W SAAMI chambering and not a reworked French model which had the outer circumference of the cylinder shaved to provide clip-clearance to fire either 9mm Parabellum with moon clips or .38 Mk2 without clips, as the early part of the India order was run in 1984.

Look a Fouling Shot Update on .38 S&W loads probably in the spring or early summer next year...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid posted this 28 September 2017

Thanks Ed, That is just what I wanted to see. I remember reading those articles but my attention span is not so good.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 September 2017

I had an article for loading for just such a critter in The Fouling Shot No. 241 and a followup in No.242.  If your 1930s Colt is dimensioned like mine, soft .358 bullets will work just fine with 2.5 grains of Bullseye.

To save you looking it up, here's the data:

Table 1 – Comparison of weight and dimensions Colt vs. Webley

                                                                Webley Mark IV .380 (1950)        Colt Police Positive .38 Colt NP (1930)

Barrel length:                                                    4”                                                                            4”

Overall Length:                                                 10.1”                                                                      9.5”

Height:                                                                 5.1”                                                                        4.5”

Weight:                                                               26.5 ozs.                                                               20 ozs.

Cylinder Diameter:                                         1.45”                                                                      1.40”

Cylinder Length:                                              1.30”                                                                      1.30”

Cylinder Throats:                                             .362                                                                        .359

Cylinder Gap:                                   0.005PASS/0.006HOLD                                   0.005PASS/0.006HOLD  

Barrel bore/groove:                                       .355/.362                                                             .344/.354

 

Table 2 - Velocity Comparisons Webley & Scott .380 Mark IV  vs. .38 Colt New Police Positive

 

Ammunition:                                                     Webley Mark IV               Colt Police Positive

Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load           750 fps, 19 Sd                     794 fps, 14 Sd

Accurate 36-125T, 2.7 grs. Bullseye          761 fps, 10 Sd                     803 fps, 10 Sd

“              “              “, 3.0 grs. Bullseye           837 fps, 16 Sd                     883 fps, 9 Sd

Accurate 155D-146-gr.HP 3.0 Bullseye    794 fps, 15 Sd                     852 fps, 12 Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye         640 fps, 8 Sd                       671 fps, 11 Sd

“              “              “,  2.5 grs. Bullseye          710 fps, 16 Sd                     756 fps, 11 Sd

Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye         595 fps, 10 Sd                     601 fps, 18 Sd

Ideal 195-grain #358430 1.7 Bullseye       513 fps, 11 Sd                     Would not chamber in Colt        

Accurate 36-201D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye         601 fps, 12 Sd                     612 fps, 20 Sd

NOE 201-grain Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye      609 fps, 12 Sd                     629, fps 15 Sd    

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid posted this 26 September 2017

I have a Colt Police Positive 4" that chased me home today. I got blinded by the condition and the price and did not notice the absence of "special" after the 38 roll marked on the barrel. The gun is very nearly unfired with a little carry wear. I'm hoping to not have to spring for a .360" or bigger mold. Who's up for helping me out in getting this old boy barking? It was made in 1930.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 March 2017

The Accurate 36-176P mold arrived and I cast a bunch yesterday.  Small flat-rate boxes are packaged to go out to testers Monday. Dimensions as-cast in FBI Quantico backstop lead are about perfect for the S&W Victory, postwar S&W Model 32 Terrier, Webley & Scott, Enfield, and Albion revolvers having large (.362+) cylinder throats.  

The parallel-sided, bore-riding nose is about .359 as-cast, so will need to be sized .358” to enter tighter cylinder throats of the Ruger India models and pre-war Colts.

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 05 March 2017

Dave, re the .44 Special, Tom Ellis at Accurate molds produces similar versions in .32, .44 and .45 calibers:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 05 March 2017

Dave,  The 176P mold hasn't arrived yet, you might have an earlier version, either 155D, 178D or 193D, not remembering which I might have sent you...  36-178D differs from the 176P in having a tapered nose, rather than parallel-sided, with smaller meplat.

Better WEIGH the bullets before loading them.  My 10 BHN scrap alloy also runs a bit heavier than the wheelweights Tom used as a reference when calculating the bulets weights from his CAD program.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 05 March 2017

In the radial-copper test barrels case wall hardness and thickness affects the “blanking pressure” needed to puncture the case to exert pressure on the piston.  That is why in government practice the case was pre-drilled, the hole covered with Teflon tape, and the cartridge carefully indexed when inserting into the chamber of the pressure barrel.  The same practice was used with the earlier piezoelectric transducers, in particular the Kistler “conformal” type and the “BRL Minihat” which I used in the 1980s.  SAAMI eventually went and used the same European system adopted by the CIP, which I am unfamiliar with, but I understand is better suited to production use, because it doesn't require pre-drilling, although the advantage of the government method, is that it doesn't care about case material or construction, being equally applicable to either steel, aluminum or brass cases and permitting the same measurement system to be used in automatic cannon ammunition as for small arms.
"

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 05 March 2017

Ed

 

Be glad to test those!

 

I have another test ready.  I've noticed a real disparity in the “hardness” and thickness of different cases.  I have the same load in R-P plain brass cases, nickel R-P cases and Starline cases.  Assuming harder and thicker cases might withstand some of the pressure applied to the chambers I'm going to see if there is any meaningful difference in measured psi between them.

 

LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 05 March 2017

Ed, just love the 36-176P. When I opened the box and looked at them, the first thought that came to mind was “bonecrusher". I can't wait until I play with these and give you some data.

But I want some of these in .44 for my Taurus 3” .44 special. I need them, the visions of hydrostatic displacement are dancing in my head. 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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Ed Harris posted this 04 March 2017

Now have in the works a 176-grain ogival wadcutter for the  .38 S&W and .38 Special with .255” meplat (0.71 of bullet diameter) and parallel sided nose .357” diameter and .405” long with 0.1 radius blend to the meplat.

Nose tolerance is negative so that rounds will drop freely into chamber throats for using speed loaders, but the nose diameter is large enough to receive positive guidance and be engraved by the rifling before the bullet base leaves the cylinder throat!  The 0.1 radius from meplat to the bore-riding nose aids rounds entering the chambers easily using speed loaders.  

Overall bullet length is 0.66", so seating depth is only 0.255” to ease pressure and maximize powder capacity in the short .38 S&W case.  OAL is 1.56” when seated and crimped in .38 Special brass and 1.18” in .38 S&W brass.

Design intent is for a non-tumbling, smashing straight and deep penetrator which does not require expansion to be effective at low velocities (below 700 fps) required of standard pressure loads fired from the 2-inch snubbies. Looking to try 2.2 grains of Bullseye in the .38 S&W and 3.2 grains in the .38 Special in similar 2-inch S&W J-frames Model 32-1 and Model 36.

Larry, if you feel like doing some pressure testing of these in .38 S&W and .38 Special brass, I would be happy to cast and send you some once the mold arrives. 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 06 February 2017

Sounds to me like I need to get into some serious bullet casting for Larry!

UPDATE 7 Feb 2017 - Medium flat rate box on the way Larry, Enjoy!

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 06 February 2017

Ed

 

Yes I'd really like some more of the 36-151H and 36-155D bullets to test.  I'd like to get a more thorough testing of Unique and maybe TightGroup in the 38 S&W.  The 38 S&W cartridge is pretty much neglected, especially for lower end loads for the break open revolvers. I would really like to get a good handle on the two different levels of loads.  I can certainly write it up for the Fouling Shot. 

 

I have test barrels for the 45 Colt and 45 ACP so we can test your loads with those 45 bullets whenever you're ready.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 05 February 2017

Larry,

I can send you some more 36-151H and 36-155D bullets if you would like a larger sample.

Louisiana Man has gotten good results with HP38 and W231, 2.7-2.8 grains tracked closely velocity-wise with 2.5 of Bullseye

It would really be great if you would write up these results for a Fouling Shot article.

If you have a similar set-up for your T/C in either .45 ACP or .45 Colt, I could send you 45-240H1, 45-262H and 45-290H bullets to try when  get around to casting more.

I have been using 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the .455 Webley MkVI, 4 grains in the S&W .45 ACP Hand Ejector and 6 grains in the .45 Colt with all three bullets.

Accuracy and ballistic uniformity have been very good, especially in the small .44/.410/28-ga/ frame single-shot H&R “American Rook Rifle” at 100 yards. 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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