As FYI, now in the Accurate catalog 36-151H is based on the 45-240H1 for the .455 Webley, simply reducing the diameter to .360” with tolerance positive to provide correct fit for .362” cylinder throats as-cast without sizing.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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The flat primers are probably not due to pressure alone, but likely from the primer cup being forced back during the initial primer blast, followed by the case head being slammed driven against the recoil shield as pressure builds and drives the case back to take up any existing head clearance and/or end shake.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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+1 on the Federal 200 primers. I also use these as a reliability check on carry guns to ensure adequate striker energy. A revolver which has 0.010” copper indent on the government gage might misfire once in 100 with Federal 200s. If your gun runs 100 straight of these you have no worries.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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The Contender has a 2.5X scope mounted and with quality 357 cast loads will put 10 shots into one raged hole less than 1” ctc at 25 yards. However, with the shorter 38 S&W cartridge the bullet exits the case it is not supported as it is in a revolver by the cylinder throats before entering the barrel. In the Contender chamber there would be considerable space around the bullet in the longer chamber for probable misalignment before the bullet enters the leade. Previous testing showed accuracy could be quite good and very poor. Since I’m probably the only one shooting any 38 S&W out of a Contender that isn’t a problem those of you with bullets that properly fit your revolvers cylinder throats have. The test groups were cut out and pasted to the Oehler data sheets.
With low pressure loads the M43 PBL will not provide any measurements unless sufficient data is measured. This means any data from such shots will be “lost” including the velocity. To alleviate that problem I also set up a M35P Oehler in tandem with the M43 PBL screens to at least capture the velocity. It also is interesting to compare the measured velocity data. If the M43 PBL doesn’t measure all the shots in a test string the M35P still provides velocity information (generally a lower velocity shot wasn’t measured) for study. An example of that will be shown. The M35P print out is pasted on the Oehler M43 data sheet left of the “shot Data” and “Summary” data.
The start screen for the M43 PBL was at 15’ and at 12.5’ for the M35P. Shooting was done from the bench with a Hoppe’s pistol rest.
The chamber on the Contender is to minimum specifications for the 357 magnum and most 38 S&W cartridges will not chamber. However, the R-P factory 38 S&W cartridges would chamber,,,,very tightly. I had on hand 50 new Starline 38 S&W cases and W-W and R-P 38 S&W fired cases. All of the Starline and most of the fired R-P cases would chamber when FL sized in a steel RCBS 357 FL die. With bullets larger than .358 seated they would not chamber. Thus all the test bullets other than the R-P factory that would chamber were sized .358 or .357. The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, that accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362 cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter.
In the post below are pictures where we see the bullets used: left to right; R-P factory, W-W factory, Western Lubaloy factory, Ed Harris provided the 36-125T, the 36-155D and the 36-151H and I provided the Lee 356-105-SWC. Also is a picture of the 3 bullets Ed provided loaded and another of the three factory loads.
CC! 500 primers were used. A roll crimp was used in the crimp groove of each bullet. All powder charges were weighed individually on a Redding scale.
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Update 9 Jan 2019
Soon to arrive from Accurate, 36-187H.
Design intent is to provide a long nose to exploit the cylinder length of the S&W Victory Models in .380 Mk2, having a long .360"+ cylindrical bore riding portion to align the bullet in the large cylinder throats of the S&W Victory Model as well as the Webley & Scott Mk4 and S&W .38 Regulation Police and Terrier revolvers. Seating depth is only .275" in .775" long .38 S&W brass for 1.285" overall cartridge length, which fills the cylinder length of these revolvers.
Will not fit in the Colt .38 New Police or Ruger India Model unless the forepart is sized .358"-ish to fit cylinder throats, which run smaller in those guns.
Also plan to try this as a small game and gallery bullet in my .35/.30-30 rifle, with 8 grains of Bullseye, as the long, parallel .360" diameter bore-riding forepart will fit the throat of my relined and rechambered 1894 Winchester.
Appropriate charge is 2.1 grains of Bullseye for the British top-breaks and 2.5 grains for S&W Victory and post-1957 S&Ws.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
I load these for my IJs break-tops. They are all chrono at about 550 - 630.
2 gr.- Red Dot,
2.8 gr.- Unique,
2 gr.- Bullseye,
1.9 gr- WW-231
2.2 gr. -700X
with Arsenal 360-135 RF
and
1.8 gr. - Bullseye
1.8 gr. - Unique
2.2 - WW-231
with Arsenal 360-162 RF
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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Ed
My pressure testing of the 38 S&W is incomplete at this time. I've pressure tested 2 loads of 38 S&W with an Oehler M43 using a Contender .357 barrel. The extra length of the 357 chamber also approximates the cylinder throat length. Granted there is no barrel/cylinder gap but that means the measured psi will just be a bit higher in the Contender barrel. Given the nature of strain gauge psi measurement it requires about 7 - 9000 psi to get a measurement. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi (transducer/strain) which is intended for solid frame guns. As a reference the 38 SPL has a MAP of 17,000 psi. Most all factory 38 SPL psi's I've measured run 14,500 to 16000 psi.....that's a typical fudge factor between the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) and actual measured factory psi's. Contrary to popular belief most factory ammunition is not loaded to SAAMI MAP.
As to my tested loads; while 38 S&W cartridges do not chamber I used R-P match 38 SPL cases trimmed back to 38 S&W length. They are the thinnest back to the web of any 38 SPL cases I've found cut back to .38 S&W length and are very close in dimension to modern 38 S&W cases. I loaded the same load as I load in 38 S&W cases using 2 gr Bullseye under the 105 gr Lee SWC and the 150 gr Lyman 358477 with a CCI SPP. After 10 rounds tested with the Lee bullet I got no psi measurement. That means the psi was less than the required 7 - 8000+ psi needed to put a strain on the barrel to measure. After 10 test shots of the 358477 bullet there were 2 very low erratic measurements indicating barely any consistent strain on the barrel at all.
Thus I have had no problem shooting either bullet with 2 gr Bullseye in either of my revolvers. I prefer the Lee bullet simply because it uses 2/3 the alloy per shot and hits to point of aim at tin can distance.........
If you'd like to send me some of your bullets or your friends bullets and load info I'd be glad to pressure test them?
LMG
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For my old top-break 38 S&W, one so old the cylinder revolves in the same direction as a modern Colt, based on the Lyman 45th handbook, I stick with a starting load of Unique. I have not tried Bullseye, but no doubt it works well too, although, I would stick to a starting load here too.
This is a very small, old revolver, 5-shot, and I don't want to over-stress it. I have shot it quite a bit with the Lyman 133 grain bullet, which casts a big fat .360, and with the starting load of Unique it shoots “minute of beer can” out to say 30 yards anyway.
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Tim, I solved that by using a thicker primer cup, as in Fed 200. Small pistol power but thicker cup, and still my oldest single action Baby Russians will pierce one once in a while. HTH, Ric
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38 S&W Pressure Tests
Earlier in this thread I offered to test some of the loads mentioned for pressure to determine what level of safety there was for the different strength of revolvers made for the 38 S&W cartridge. Ed Harris graciously sent me some bullets and the data for several test loads. I also had on hand three 38 S&W factory loads plus my own 38 S&W load I use in my Harrington & Richardson revolver.
The test handgun is a TC Contender with a 7.94” long 357 magnum barrel. The bore is .347 and the groove is .357. A strain gauge is attached over the center of the chamber (as per SAAMI specifications). With a 38 S&W cartridge chambered the gauge is over the case just below the base of a factory seated bullet. The strain gauge is attached to an Oehler M43 PBL that is interfaced with a laptop computer which has the software. As you will note on the Oehler data sheets there is considerable data input on the conditions, test firearm and load information prior to testing. Each strain gauge is calibrated by the manufacturer and that is also input. I also use factory ammunition as a “reference”. Before each test the M43 runs a check on the gauge to ensure all is correct. A test cannot be done if that test is not correct.
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The R-P factory load was tested first as the rounds would chamber so it would give a “reference”. Previous chronograph results out of the H&R revolver showed the R-P to give 60 – 100+ fps greater velocity than other factory loads. It also had more powder; 2.2 gr vs 1.7 and 2 gr, than the W-W and Western factory loads. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) measured was 16,300 psi. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and all 38 SPL factory ammunition I have tested (numerous actually) in this barrel fall below that MAP so the psi measurement is correct.
I also pulled bullets of the W-W and Western factory and loaded them and the factory powder charges into sized W-W 38 S&W cases that would chamber. Neither of those two factory loads produced enough psi for a measurement. It takes 5 – 7,000 psi to expand the case to put pressure on the barrel and another few thousand psi for a “strain” on the barrel to be measured. I have measured as low as 9,000 psi with this test barrel with target 38 SPL loads. However, given the expansion ratio and loose fitting bullet in the longer chamber the lowest psi measured during this test was 11,700 psi. Thus the W-W and Western factory loads were all less than 11,700 psi as were any other load that did not measure.
Looking at the time/pressure traces to the uninitiated they can be of concern. Those are quite normal for low psi loads where the powder is not burning that efficiently. A comparison of the average velocities between the M35P and the M43 demonstrate very good consistency. The accuracy of the R-P load was extremely good.
Ed Harris 1 test is the 36-125T bullet over 3 gr Bullseye (Alliant). That is a short stubby bullet that was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA(?). I feared accuracy would not be that good given the loose fit in the 357 length chamber and was correct. Nine shots went into 2.137” but a flyer (note the oval bullet hole) enlarged the group to 3.2”. The MAP measured 15,300 psi.
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Ed Harris 2 test is the 36-125T bullet over 7.0 gr 2400 (Alliant). It proved to be a very erratic load and the 3.86” group demonstrates that. Obviously there is not enough bullet mass for 2400 to burn efficiently at this low of a load.
Ed Harris 3 test is the 36-155D over 2.5 gr Bullseye (Alliant). The 36-155D is a very efficient looking bullet. It was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA. This is a very good load demonstrating excellent accuracy potential and a MAP of 16,600 psi which is very close to the R-P factory load. Note the 1st shot was out of the previously 2400 fouled barrel and was out of the remaining 9 shot group. Those 9 shots went into 1.32” which is very good.
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Ed Harris 4 test is the 36-155D over 6.2 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here we see while we may assume accuracy to be good based on 8 shots the 2 high flyers tell us something is amiss. The internal ballistics identify that something; again 2400 at this low of a load is not burning efficiently as indicated by the very large ES figures for velocity and pressure measurements along with the erratic time/pressure curves.
Ed Harris test 5 is the 36-151H over 2.8 gr Bullseye (Alliant). This is a very consistent load and note that by seeing how the time/pressure traces are smoothing out. Also note the low psi ES’s across the board. Hey, accuracy was pretty good too! The one high shot was the high velocity. The bad news here for the 38 S&W is this load is pushing into 38 SPL+P psi range.
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The last test was to chronograph and test for accuracy the 3 factory loads out of my H&R hammerless revolver. I was quite pleased with the ES and SD of all 3 loads from the revolver. As we see the R-P gave 60 – 100 fps greater velocity. That was as it should be given the higher psi of the R-P load. Accuracy was very poor, consistently poor for all 3 loads actually, which given the undersized factory bullets didn’t surprise me. On the target the R-P bullets are in the lower circle, the W-W in the middle circle and the Western Lubaloys in the top circle. As the velocity increased the point of impact lowered as usual for a revolver.
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And there we have the test results. My only caution is that with the exception of my load which was developed for the break open revolvers to keep under the SAAMI MAP that all the other tested loads, including the R-P factory load, were over the SAMMI MAP for the 38 S&W. A couple test loads were over the SAAMI MAP for the standard 38 SPL. Due caution should be exorcized to use those only in appropriate revolvers which are also chambered for the 38 SPL.
Thanks for the assistance getting this test completed and especially helping me through the puzzle of posting.........
LMG
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Bravo Zulu Larry!
Your results validated my “gut” feeling on these loads and it looks like 2.5 grains of Bullseye with either 155D or 151H will be the loads of choice. The 155D hollow-point at 146 grains might get a slight increase to 2.7-2.8 grains only if needed to get some expansion with 1:40 tin/lead alloy, but if the bullet starts to rivet with 2.5 grains, I'm inclined to leave well enough alone.
The 125-grain bullet will be relegated to the .380 ACP. Having reliable factory duplication loads with two bullets approximating factory weight and shape with Bullseye powder is the way to go.
Thanks a bunch for your efforts. I have some of the Lee SWCs somebody sent me for samples, I need to load them and see where they shoot in my revolvers. Your T/C velocities track closely with my tight 4” Colt and the 4” India Model Ruger.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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thanks larry ... and ed ...
this might get me started to assemble my plastic bag full of parts and frame for an ” iver johnson arms and cycle works “ classic . timing is tight, probably as good as it ever was ( g ) ... i wonder why people take these old last resort revolvers apart ... there certainly isn't any golden eggs to be found within ...
ken
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Larry,
I can send you some more 36-151H and 36-155D bullets if you would like a larger sample.
Louisiana Man has gotten good results with HP38 and W231, 2.7-2.8 grains tracked closely velocity-wise with 2.5 of Bullseye
It would really be great if you would write up these results for a Fouling Shot article.
If you have a similar set-up for your T/C in either .45 ACP or .45 Colt, I could send you 45-240H1, 45-262H and 45-290H bullets to try when get around to casting more.
I have been using 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the .455 Webley MkVI, 4 grains in the S&W .45 ACP Hand Ejector and 6 grains in the .45 Colt with all three bullets.
Accuracy and ballistic uniformity have been very good, especially in the small .44/.410/28-ga/ frame single-shot H&R “American Rook Rifle” at 100 yards.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Sounds to me like I need to get into some serious bullet casting for Larry!
UPDATE 7 Feb 2017 - Medium flat rate box on the way Larry, Enjoy!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Now have in the works a 176-grain ogival wadcutter for the .38 S&W and .38 Special with .255” meplat (0.71 of bullet diameter) and parallel sided nose .357” diameter and .405” long with 0.1 radius blend to the meplat.
Nose tolerance is negative so that rounds will drop freely into chamber throats for using speed loaders, but the nose diameter is large enough to receive positive guidance and be engraved by the rifling before the bullet base leaves the cylinder throat! The 0.1 radius from meplat to the bore-riding nose aids rounds entering the chambers easily using speed loaders.
Overall bullet length is 0.66", so seating depth is only 0.255” to ease pressure and maximize powder capacity in the short .38 S&W case. OAL is 1.56” when seated and crimped in .38 Special brass and 1.18” in .38 S&W brass.
Design intent is for a non-tumbling, smashing straight and deep penetrator which does not require expansion to be effective at low velocities (below 700 fps) required of standard pressure loads fired from the 2-inch snubbies. Looking to try 2.2 grains of Bullseye in the .38 S&W and 3.2 grains in the .38 Special in similar 2-inch S&W J-frames Model 32-1 and Model 36.
Larry, if you feel like doing some pressure testing of these in .38 S&W and .38 Special brass, I would be happy to cast and send you some once the mold arrives.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed, just love the 36-176P. When I opened the box and looked at them, the first thought that came to mind was “bonecrusher". I can't wait until I play with these and give you some data.
But I want some of these in .44 for my Taurus 3” .44 special. I need them, the visions of hydrostatic displacement are dancing in my head.
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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