Who Shoots the .303 British?

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2018

Jeff in NZ, Ric, Giorgio and I have been discussing the .303 British offline.  With Jeff's help I'm compiling the info for a Fouling Shot article, but we still have more shooting to do to confirm some things.

I am more interested at this point in mild, plain-based loads for recreational shooting than heavier hunting loads.

I'm using the NOE clone of 316299 in plain-base and Accurate 31-215BB which is a bevel-based version of 31-215B, having a 0.09" long, 7-1/2 degree short boattail instead of the GC heel. I ordered this .315" diameter with the tolerance "positive" because my Long Branch No. 4 Mk1* 2-groove is "large".

Initial testing has been with Bullseye, but I am also experimenting with "half charges" ala Frank Marshall, using common extruded rifle powders like 3031 or 4064, in charges which occupy about half of the case, using a loose Dacron filler tucked into the case neck.  I'm hoping to find a utility load which shoots close to point of aim at 100 yards using the ladder of the Mk3 battlesight folded down and just using standing "ghost ring."  If I can get a load which shoots about as well as MkVII Ball ammo at about 1300 fps, I figure that approximating .44-40 Winchester payload and velocity in the .303 should put lots of meat in the freezer.  The  roundnosed NOE bullet for paper, the flatnosed Accurate mold for the woods. 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2018

Hate to point it out but I think that micrometer spindle could use a little oil.
Yes, I oiled it after I saw the photo, but if it hadn't been so rusty at the garage sale, I could not have gotten it so cheap.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 17 August 2018

I do but only for getting rid of mice.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2018

If your Long Branch is a 2-groove, you will likely find .313" is too small.  I had my Accurate and NOE plainbased molds cut to .316"

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 17 August 2018

Now anybody who ever watched Warner Brothers cartoons on Saturday mornings as a kid, knows that is Hippety Hopper, the baby roo that Sylvester the Cat calls the Giant Mouse".

Hippety Hopper cartoons have a typical formula: Hopper escapes from a zoocircus, etc., and is mistaken for a giant mouse by Sylvester the Cat. Frequently, Hopper changes places with an actual mouse, generally when it is most embarrassing for Sylvester. Sylvester tries to capture and eat his "prey", but the innocent and infantile Hippety mistakes Sylvester's predations for a game of rough-housing. Sylvester is repeatedly punched, kicked and spun around, but each failure only strengthens his desire to have the "giant mouse" for lunch. 

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 17 August 2018

Ed; it's pronounced Mowth.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 17 August 2018

Ed; it's pronounced Mowth.

 

Well suthhering succotaashh I knew dat!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2018

Output from Savage began in late 1941 and lasted only 3 years compared to Canadian Longbranch production which continued  into the 1950's.  Very early North American production resulted in some No4 Mk1 rifles, but the main body of output was the war expedient No4 Mk1* which made certain concessions to the No4 design such as the cut out in the receiver for modified bolt release vs the plunger styled bolt release of the typical No4 Mk1.

Only the North American factories of Longbranch, Ontario and Savage, Chicopee Falls, MA produced the No4 Mk1* rifle. When the Savage Lend-Lease contracts ended, all remaining spare parts and work in process were sent to Longbranch.  So Longbranch No4's will be found with Savage marked parts. Savage rifles are generally marked U.S Property on the left receiver face, serial number is located on the left butt socket wrist with a letter prefix of C included - for example 96CXXXX would be typical; the C stands for Chicopee. Late war Savage No4 Mk1* rifles are nearly always without a year of manufacture, based on serial number surveys these are estimated as 1944 production.

The first rifle contract was for 300,000 No4 rifles at a cost of $57 each and of the 96 parts required to complete the No4 rifle about 86 came from 30 parts sub contractors. Savage only produced the receiver, barrel, bolt, trigger guard, bolt head and stock and the entire package was assembled at Savage by them. Overall averaged output of Savage No4 rifles is placed at 1,196,706 and with 40,000 on lend lease to China.

The first Savage Stevens No4 rifle was test fired on Friday, July 25th, 1941 at Chicopee Falls plant but the early rifles did not meet British specifications and were sub standard - this was improved gradually over time until production was at quality standard for export to Britain. Britain placed another order for 720,000 No4 Mk1* rifles in June 1942 including bayonets to run concurrent with the original order. Many pre Lend Lease U.S No4's were rejected by the British Inspectorate for various reasons.  I am told by a former Savage employee that the rejected rifles were used to fill a 40,000 rifle order for China. Later Lend Lease agreement reduced the British conditions of control and payment as these were now considered direct British Contract.

Once the rifles entered England however the British still inspected them and marked them with a B beneath the serial numbers on the butt socket to indicate British standard of inspection and a pass based on same. Savage rifles are generally found to have a 2 groove barrel and all parts should be found with the square Savage S or standard S. Receivers or various parts carry the U.S Flaming Bomb ordnance proof as well. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Danny posted this 19 September 2018

Going to try posting my first pick. Here is my Mk III. I've done some cosmetic work to it as it came to me pretty nasty with green paint on the stock. The date on the receiver is 1918 and that is significant to my family as my maternal grand uncle died with members of the lost battalion in October of 1918. Hope it comes out but if not, I'll learn why and fix it.

Danny

My 1918 SmLE mk III

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Brodie posted this 22 September 2019

You don't really need the Linotype.  If you want a harder alloy just water drop or heat treat the wheel weights.  A properly fitting bullet with a gas check can be pushed to jacketed speeds in the .303.

The way to clean corrosive primer salts from a gun barrel is to use hot soapy water.  Scrub the barrel well wiith several wet patches, rinse with boiling water,  dry the barrel well and then oil.  Just like you were cleaning a muzzle loader that had been shot with black powder.

Good luck with your summer projects.

B.E.Brickey

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 August 2018

I shoot the 303 in 2 Canadian milsurp rifles; a Longbranch No4 MkI* and a Ross MK10.  I use several GC'd bullets mostly so not much help there.  Only PB'd bullet I shoot is the 90 gr Lee TL314-90-SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye.

LMG  

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 16 August 2018

My Long Branch 1943 has walnut stock and handguards. The Skennerton book indicates this is normal for North American production, whereas post 1940 UK production, including postwar FTRs substituted other woods, beech and birch among others.  Many wartime Long Branch and Savage stocks after mid-1943 were supposedly made from birch depending upon supplies available at the time. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid posted this 18 August 2018

After careful examination my Canuck has a .318" ball seat and .314" throat with aboot ( catch the aboot?) .311" across the grooves. I have two molds for the 327 and to thirties that taper from .301" to .314". The later take gas checks but I can skip that. My rifle is walnut as well.

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JeffinNZ posted this 18 August 2018

.318 groove is not unheard of in two groove barrels.   My .303 Pygmy barrel is a two groove and measures .317 inch.  Groove in two groove barrels were made deeper to compensate for missing grooves into which jacket metal could displace.  It's got to go somewhere. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2018

If it has the "B" stamp, buy it! 

The collector consensus is the Brit rejections were based mostly on UK replacement parts not being fully compatible, and not for any failure in terms of safety or function.  

If the rifle lacks the "B", but looks good and clean otherwise, use the lack of the "B" acceptance mark to haggle down the price.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 20 August 2018

Info received on new Criterion replacement barrels:

http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/lee-enfield

 

The dimensions of the No. 4 Enfield barrel is as follows:

 

Bore Dia:  .303

 

Groove Dia:  .314

# of Grooves:  5 Grooves

Twist 1:10"

-.303 British reamer prints in attachments.

(.pdf won't attach, anyone wanting to see the chamber print PM me with your email address-Ed).  

MSRP on the No. 4 barrels is $349.99 direct from the factory. 

 

I hope that this helps to answer some of your questions.  If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me directly.

Sincerely,

 

Michael Ross

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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David Reiss posted this 20 August 2018

Here is some photos of my Savage that shows some of Ed's points he made in his post. My is a two groove and measures .318". When I have more time I will photograph my other two SMLEs.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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Ed Harris posted this 06 September 2018

I think that 22.5 grains of 4895 is a bit warm without a GC, but you could always try again with more lube. 

My experience has been in most .30 cals. such as the .30-30, the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.62x54R and the .30-'06, that the  plain-based, cast bullet charge using common extruded rifle powders shouldn't exceed 1/2 of the jacketed charge for a bullet of the same weight.  That presumes the bullet fits properly, is well lubricated and also presumes use of a 1 grain Dacron fill to take up some of the free airspace in the case.  

According to Speer the max. recommended load of 4895 with a 180-grain jacketed bullet in the .303 is 40 grains and the start load is 36 grains, so following the late Frank Marshall's advice, you should be working in the range of 18-20 grains and then should expect better results.  I have test loads assembled for my .303 with NOE 316299 and Accurate 31-215BB which I hope to test soon when the hot and humid weather breaks.

If you do further testing with more lube and/or a lighter charge, please post your results. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 07 September 2018

Gee and I thought paying $30 in the US for GCs was too much, Ouch!

I think if you reduce the charge, increase the lube and use a Dacron filler you should be OK to to about 1400 fps. 

Some people in northern climates use a cake decorator to inject a lube ball about the size of a pea into the neck before seating the bullet and claim this helps, but I always worried about the lube melting in hot weather and attacking the powder.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 September 2018

not bad at all. . . . . especially when you take off the two inches each way for the iron sight handi-cap, and additionally subract the one-inch wobble area from the military stock .

i had an unfired brit one time, but i figured if i fired it, it would not be unfired anymore ... that  confused me so i sold it.  always wondered if the next guy fired it.

ken

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Danny posted this 19 September 2018

Well it worked but needs refined. At least it is rather easy to post photos here. I'll get better.

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