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Martini Cadet 32-20 rechamber to wildcat 32 cal  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 11:36 pm
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corerf
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So I started and killed a thread regarding a Martini Cadet rechambered long ago to 32-20 and was looking for a solution to correct the bore mismatch to the cartridge.
So I thought something in a 35 cal necked down was a good idea. Maybe it is. But its awful expensive and a long time out to have dies produced.  I have received much in assistance from Ric in Yakima regarding the possibilities and 32-40 was the final easy answer.
I got to looking at the live 32-20 rounds I bought from Black Hills and the Starline brass and RCBS heeled bullet from Buff Arms. In my hands was an assortment of parts. I chamber cast the rifle and about the first 1.5 inch of barrel forward of chamber. Measurements are .315 bore, .320 groove.

After taking measurements, I felt surely there is some better product than moving up to the 32-40. I have 32-20 brass. I have NO 32-20 dies as its very well known that it will serve poorly for the Martini chamber/bore mismatch. My brass will die a quick death for sure.

I downloaded a blank print from PTG. I also came up with some capital for reamers for several projects. I began to contemplate how I could take a 32-20 parent as is, expand neck to 323 for an 8mm bullet (proper for  the Martini). The Greener chamber was very short, allowing the 32-20 to clean up the old chamber. Im stuck with certain dimensions. The rim recess is a mess, two diff diameters from the 310 and 32-20 reamers. By setting the barrel back, I can freshen up the throat area and almost purify the chamber as new.

I have drawn a new reamer print, attached. It is an 8mm hybrid. 32-20 parent, expanded to an 8mm proper neck so that traditional GG bullets can fit INSIDE the 32-20 case. There is little margin for error in the throat area. I want to use the RCBS bullet designed for the 32-20/310 cadet. Velocity and pressures will be where i want them with minor changes to the starting 32-20 loads.  I will take the mold to school and open the shank from being heeled to being a .3235 shank and Ill leave a .010  lump to form a second grease groove. The bullet will seat deep enough to cover the front grease groove by .005 or so. Like I said its a very, very tight fit for this bullet to be reused for this purpose. Worst case is if failure occurs, Ill order a throater and lengthen the throat another .050 and use a longer 8mm Mauser type plain base bullet thats been hacked on a bit to shorten it.

So the idea is to pull barrel, set back far enough to all but clean up the rim recess. Thats about .060 if I leave a minor remnant of the old recess. I havent calcd the thread pitch so I am not sure how many turns it will set back yet. Hopefully not more than 2.
Ill lathe bore the proper .410 rim recess to .065 plus/minus Headspace requirements. Ill index the barrel back to TDC and relieve any interference for extractor, etc, etc.
Then ream the chamber with a "weird" reamer.

I set the body to have a .3570 head that extends .2 inch. Zero taper in body for that area. It should add a small increase in capacity (not that it matters). it also gives me a straight walled case head to size. I can bore a die out to .3540, a straight tube to size the case head. Thats pretty cheap to do to an old die. I dont intend to push the cartridge so I dont expect to have significant swelling to reduce. I REALLY DONT WANT TO USE A CUSTOM DIE SET!!

The shoulder of the 32-20 is gone, now just a minor taper to the neck diameter of .338 ID (3415 OD on print for neck expansion).
All of .005 of freebore then a 6.5' leade for .070 inch. From measuring the RCBS bullet, I derived the .070 point of rifling contact. The bullet should kiss the lands with significant nose penetration into bore. Worst case is a MODIFY the RCBS mold and add 2 small GG to the shank and use the existing GG as a crimp groove (NOT A BAD IDEA!!)
The neck can be resized with a 32 ACP die. Neck expansion with an 8mm mauser die stem.
Basically it gets reloaded with a bunch of junk that I can find at the gun show in odds and ends or already have on hand.

So thats the IDEA.

I am certain when I present this to Dave Kiff, he will make suggestions either abruptly or gently.... I am sure I have errors somewhere. Ive never designed a reamer or a wildcat. 
Anybody have any input on the drawing? Anyone see major "stupid" stamped on a dimension? Its supposed to be a straightened 32-20 (basically a 32 H&R on steroids).
I am concerned about the cartridge headspacing on the body taper and not the rim after a first firing. But the cartridge will look much like many Sharps BN cartridges but tiny!
I believe if I take it easy on the brass and loadings, I wont need a FL die for a long time. By then, I may have the skills to ream a DIE here at home and do it RIGHT.
For some reason I feel like the case head should be at .3500. Starline brass mics at .345 unfired. From multiple samples and sources. .350 would be less taper in boy to .3415 neck. Darned near straight walled. it will for sure HS on the rim. I can move the neck/body junction back with a 32 ACP die if needed to get fired cartridges to chamber freely after first firing- if needed. At that point I could use a 32-20 sizer that the neck was opened up on. I could do that with a chucking reamer to make the neck area useless. Make a custom body sizer only.
Those are afterthoughts. Ill ask Mr. Kiff for a reamer print of 32-20 std and maybe just modify the existing neck/throat area. 
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Attachment: 8x3220 reamer v1.pdf (Downloaded 2 times)

Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 12:00 am by corerf

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 12:06 am
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Ed Harris
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Looks like an 8x32R Helbig No.1. I used to gave one. RCBS mase the dies.



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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 12:17 am
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corerf
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I just red your thread of old Ed! 8x32R Helbig, on Martini Cadet (I am walking in your footsteps!)

Did you end up with a reamer left over on this one that you would like to part company with for ever or for a day??

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 12:35 am
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corerf
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The butt end of a 218 Bee Fl die, if sawn in half, will give me the case head resizing perfectly. I need to adjust the case head to .350 or so. The BEE die will size back to .345-7 or so.


ED:


Can I just blow out the entire body to .350 till I hit the neck, then reduce to the neck diameter (Like an AI)? Will there be an ailment if I do so?

I know that I will "NOW NEED TO" HS on the shoulder that is formed. I already do this on 22 K- Hornet on my Contender.

I will attempt to push back a shoulder on an unfired case with the 32 ACP sizer. The radius of the shoulder will be the radius of the ACP die at its bottom edge.

That is a solution. Two dies to do the job Well maybe three with the 8mm expander ball.

Thoughts??

Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 12:58 am by corerf

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:48 am
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Ed Harris
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I never had the reamer. Chris Helbig, who did thec work, simply, simply ran a .32-40 neck and throater into the existing. 310 Greener chamber, cutting it to use a full-length. 32-20 case, blown out, then kissed the rim seat with a .32-20 reamer to headspace.

I later had my Cadet rebarrelled to .357, though John Taylor, who did that work, might still have the pull-off barrel, after all tbese yesrs, but I doubt it.



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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:49 am
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delmarskid1
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Did I miss the part where this is all easier than a new barrel? I understand your thought process and I'm more than a little envious that you are able to do these things on your own. It makes sense to me. Am 8mm cast cartridge of this size will be way cool.



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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:53 am
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RicinYakima
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I think you are headed in the right direction! However, measure the rim thickness on your 32/20 brass. None of mine is over 0.047", so a rim depth of 0.065 would be excessive. True, it is only for the first firing, but something else to look at.

Isn't this fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ric

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 04:19 am
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corerf
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Ric, starline on my desk, current product is .065 where I got my measurement from. Both black hills live ammo and virgin brass both. Is your brass starline or rem/Chester?

Delmar... On an all matching almost unmolested beautiful bsa cadet, I'm not about to touch a rebarrel. Yes much easier, but like a Volkswagen with a deck lid and fat tires, one won't know what's under the hood till you hear the exhaust. I want to keep it full military and fix the screwed up 32-20 chamber. This is not a sporter, it's all original and stored since the 60's.


Ed: I'd buy that barrel if you can find it!!!! Sights or not, either way. Unless it's total trash inside and even then maybe for the shank as a reference piece.

Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 04:19 am by corerf

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 04:23 am
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Duke M
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Gosh, I just trim some 32-20 cases back to 1.22" and expanded them to accept a Saeco 90 gr .322" round nose bullet that I think was meant for the 8 m/m Nambu. I then load them with 4.0 gr of Unique. I don't have a target handy but it will hold right around an inch from 25 yards. The sights are more of a limiting factor or maybe my eyes.
Rim thickness at .061" seems to work best. W-W brass has a thinner rim than R-P. I don't use dies to resize as I can slip the bullet into the fired case with a light chamfer, and if handled gently can shoot them as is. When I want to just carry them in a pocket for small game hunting I remove the de-capping stem from a 32-20 FL sizing die and run the loaded round in just far enough to put a bit of tension on the neck. Not enough though to squeeze the bullet smaller in the case.
The round ends up a straight wall case.

Duke

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 05:42 am
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Ken Campbell Iowa
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i am wondering about that 6 ( or 12 ? ) degree forcing cone ... i would try more for a 1 to 3 included if your bullet allows.

other than that .. EAT MY HEART OUT !!

ken

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:24 pm
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corerf
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Ken,

I plan to use a really short stubby bullet.

Al least at first. With a shallow lead I wont likely have the bullet support.
Now if the shorty shoots like pooh, then Ill have to use the 1.5 degree and use a longer bullet. Ive read that past 140gr the twist is not going to support the system.

I got the 6 degree from paper patch specs but have read here, most are set to 1.5 degrees. The bullet is so short there is nothing to support.
Does that make sense? Am I misunderstanding that leade angle?

Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:25 pm by corerf

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 02:54 pm
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RicinYakima
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corerf,

My measurements are from 1990's Rem/Win 32/20 cases, both at about 0.044 - 0.045" The Starline are from an early 2001 purchase, so made in 2000 probably. They are 0.047". I do have six Norma cases from the 1960's that are 0.061", but never seen any more of them.

Ric

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 Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 11:31 pm
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corerf
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Ric, that's a big shift. I expect I'll likely never use rem/Chester but that concerns me. Almost 20 thou! I'll have to sample more in the bag and box. The 10 I checked were at .063-065. Either way, up or down, if I buy factory ammo I'd better be prepared for a problem one day.

I found ptg makes a neck/throat reamer for $66.00
Seems that if I have one ground I can forego the reamer and make just the change I need. I think earlier ED mentioned a smith only making a neck/throat adjustment.

Either way barrel has to be unscrewed. But I won't have to refit anything with the neck/throater. I like that.

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 Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2014 11:28 pm
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corerf
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Update: Sent off a PencilCAD drawing for a neck/throater for the 32-20 conv to 8mm today, waiting for Dave Kiff's blessing (or rebuke)

I measured by bore, as close as I can measure its .310
Groove is debatable but is for sure .320 and maybe closer to .321
4 degree throat. .322 leade.

Im still planning on buying an RCBS Heeled bullet mold (125 gr) and having one cavity shank opened to 323 and leaving two added shallow (Maybe 3) .010 lube grooves. The other cav will have two grooves plus a GC shank.

Im not the best mill boring guy yet so HP mold service will get the call.
I should end up with a GC bullet I can push a bit, like a 38 special and a sub/super sonic plain base bullet for basic plinking/rabbit busting, etc.

The GC bullet may even get an HP nose (after all its going to Erik, thats what hes good at)

It may be cheaper to cut down a LEE alum mold from a mauser style bullet than do the rcbs mold. No visit to Erik, no HP or GC option but I can cut the mold myself and end up with a similar mold to the PB option. ANd the mold is 25% the cost of RCBS. Nose will fit fine too in the new throat.

I still believe I will be able to full length size with 30 carbine, no stem for body and neck size and push shoulder back with 32 ACP. They both seem to dimensionally hit on the money! The 32 acp might oversize the neck but only .2 or .3 will need to be touched to gain neck tension again.

Yes, its a ton of work to fix something that already "works ok" if hitting paper is all that is desired. This is my first real wildcat project, where I am dictating dimensions and design, etc. I think it has a good purpose as well. And its cheaper than rebarrel, cheaper than full rechamber, cheap to tool for and doesnt add more Horsepower than desired for the rifles intended purpose. Killing rabbits at distance.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2014 01:07 am
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delmarskid1
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Make two! I want one.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2014 06:21 pm
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Muddy 22
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What I have done is take a size P (.323)letter drill and bore out the shank on a lee 309-113 mold leaving a flat base small groove bullet and lube w/45-45-10. My Cadet has been rechambered to 32 Spcl. and as near as I can tell is 310x320 and has an approx .5 inch long throat. The next time I have my pot heated up I'll make a throat slug. I epoxied 2 weaver bases on mine fore and aft of the rear sight and use a 2x7 pistol scope. It shoots about 1.5-2" day in and day out at 100y. w/4-6 gr of most any fast pistol powder from 1050 to 1275 fps. I'm getting gas cutting on the rear of the bullets groves, kinda an arrow shaped end of the grove portion which I am sure is from the long throat. but w/the slow twist, other than having a custom GC mold made, I'll have to live w/it-Muddy

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 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2014 08:03 pm
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badgeredd
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corerf wroteI measured by bore, as close as I can measure its .310
Groove is debatable but is for sure .320 and maybe closer to .321
4 degree throat. .322 leade.

Im still planning on buying an RCBS Heeled bullet mold (125 gr) and having one cavity shank opened to 323 and leaving two added shallow (Maybe 3) .010 lube grooves. The other cav will have two grooves plus a GC shank.

Im not the best mill boring guy yet so HP mold service will get the call.
I should end up with a GC bullet I can push a bit, like a 38 special and a sub/super sonic plain base bullet for basic plinking/rabbit busting, etc.

The GC bullet may even get an HP nose (after all its going to Erik, thats what hes good at)

It may be cheaper to cut down a LEE alum mold from a mauser style bullet than do the rcbs mold. No visit to Erik, no HP or GC option but I can cut the mold myself and end up with a similar mold to the PB option. ANd the mold is 25% the cost of RCBS. Nose will fit fine too in the new throat.


I just completed a rifle for a 32-40 "kinda" which I short chambered the reamer to allow me to use re-formed 30-30 brass without the added chamber length and I used a 8mm Magnum take-off barrel. I know it is a bit off, but I wanted a rifle with the basic 32-40 design. ANYWAY to get to the point, I had Accurate mold make a 2 cavity mold for the rifle to fit its dimensions. AND if you'd like a mold similar to the RCBS mold, Tom will draw it up for you approval. You might want to investigate that for yourself as the delivered price for a mold isn't much higher than purchasing a RCBS mold and you won't have to modify a thing. Just a thought that I hope you find helpful.

Edd

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 Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2014 08:05 pm
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Bob 11B50
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Have not read all of your post yet.  Thought I'd let you know my experience.  bought a 32-20 Martini years ago.  I really like the rifle and stock.     The only problem is that the darn thing wouldn't shoot.
The 32-20 bullet is about .314.  The bore of my Martini was about .321, as I remember.  I purchased a 32-40 barrel from a fellow in Maine.  It was fine.  The only problem is that the 32-40 round was a bit  too long with any bullet other than .31959 (I think).  I couldn't really get the 32-40 round to chamber.
I put the other barrel back on and had it sleaved.  The sleave is about .314", as I remember.  I think I got it from Track of the Wolf.  I shoots very well now.  If your Martini is still cambered for thre .310, I'd suggest leaving it there.  Try some Bertram Brass and perhaps a CBE healed bullet.  Or, if worse comes to worse try something like a .357.
Bob 11B50

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 Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2014 09:12 pm
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Ken Campbell Iowa
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hey bob 11b50

i would like more details on your sleeving job. any photos /

did you sleeve the tenon and then re-thread.

or did you sleeve the chamber and then rechamber !!!! if so i gotta learn more ... i collect odd barrels and use them to " graft " onto odd actions .. always looking for tricks.

ken

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 Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2014 08:48 pm
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Bob 11B50
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Hellop Ken,It has been a long time since I had the work done.  The fellow who did the work was a friend of mine, Gary Fullerton, here in Placerville, CA.  He has dislexia so I'm never quite sure how things get accomplished.  
Gary didn't haver a source for a barrel sleave.  I was poking around on Track of the Wolf web site/ catalogue one day and noticed some 32-20 sleaves that were 0.312" as I remember; also they has a 1 in 14 twist if I remember correctly.  So we purchased one and Gary installed it and chambered it.  
I have not played with the rifle for a while, gotta get it out.  I think I've got a J.W. Fecker 6.xxx scope on it.  I shoot 3118 and 311316 in it with good results.  I'll see if I can get a camera and take some photos of the rifle and targets and post them.
For several years I have really enjoyed your posts along with several others.  I just did Gary's Turtle wax Chrome Treatment and Rust Remover treatment on a 25-25 Marlin 94CL and experienced great results.  Gotta get the camera working!!
Bob 11B50

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