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"The Load" Is 13 grains of Red Dot  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 11:08 am
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Ed Harris
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"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to handloading.  About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino,  a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" 

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries.  I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R.  I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet.  Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today!)or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.  

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! 

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot.  We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1.      The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not!  

2.      The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3.      The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4.      Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.  Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.  Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead. in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load" works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By  substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail.  Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.  It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around.  Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!

Last edited on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 11:20 am by Ed Harris



____________________
In Home Mix We Trust
From the Home of Ed's Red
In Almost Heaven, West Virginia
Regards, Ed
73 de KE4SKY
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 Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 07:02 pm
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Dan Willems
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Ed,

Nice article. I took the bite and went out and got a pound of Red Dot today. Here at Windhill, Stan and I have been shooting 13gr of Blue Dot with about any 30 caliber. Works OK for off-hand loads. I'll try to compare the two powders just for kicks. :)

Dan

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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:01 am
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DonH
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Ed;
How does 700X compare to Red Dot in this type of loading?

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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 07:49 am
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Ed Harris
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In my experience 700X burns faster by about 1.5 to 2 grains in the '06 for the same velocity.



____________________
In Home Mix We Trust
From the Home of Ed's Red
In Almost Heaven, West Virginia
Regards, Ed
73 de KE4SKY
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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 12:41 pm
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LeeG
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The 700x question also has me intrigued.

Many many moons ago I shot trap quite a bit (several times each week).  After going through all the flake powders I settled on a 1 & 1/8 ounce shot load (12 guage) using AA hulls and various charges of 700x based upon the number of times the hulls had been fired.  I always bought 700x by the biggest containers I could get my hands on.

When I switched from jacketed to cast handgun bullets 700x became my powder of choice in all pistols except for magnum loads.   it was comparatively cheap, and quite accurate.

Have you compared the accuracy of 700x to Red Dot in cast rifle loads?

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 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 07:06 am
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Joe Brennan
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I suspect theat "The Load" is simply "A Load". Certainly the same results can be achieved using Unique or Herco or Blue Dot of Green Dot or 2400. Probably the best and most versatile "Universal" powder is Unique.

It would be interesting to see comparative accuracy results across the old Hercules spectrum, but there's no point to it that I can see. Use whichever powder you wish, just beware that the only advantage to be found with Red Dot is if you have a drum and no other use for it.

And, think about the pressure/hardness relationship with Red Dot!! Is there inconsistency there?

joe brennan

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 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 10:34 am
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pat i.
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I was wondering where you'd been Joe but now realize you must have taken a short hiatus to brush up on your "people skills". Keep up the good work. .>

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 Posted: Sun Oct 7th, 2007 07:24 am
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Joe Brennan
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When we were dealing with the business of a precise relationship between bullet hardness, pressure and performance I used as one example the 13/Red Dot load. (I concluded, after a lot of work, that the relationship was imaginary.)

John Bischoff was kind enough to run some Quickload data for us, he's running more even as we (or at least I) speak. Here's some:

Pressure (psi) and Velocity (fps)

31141, 176 gr., 24" bbl., 13/Red Dot

 

308 Win           30/40 Krag      30/06 Spr.

35502              34240              27349             

1654                1638                1576

 

311299, 202 gr., 24" bbl., 13/Red Dot

308 Win          30/40 Krag      30/06 Spr.

39082              37564              29618

1557                1542                1483

 

If we then go to the family of theories about BHN, pressure and performance; we see that there are two notions. Here they are, for wyheelweights at BHN = 12. 

1422 X 12(BHN) = 17064 psi min

480 X 3 X 12(BHN) = 17280 psi min

 

It's clear that either 13/Red Dot can't work with bullets much softer than 24BHN, or that the hardness formulae are incorrect.

It is also clear that 13/Red Dot is in the high pressure area for slow cast bullets. Much higher than it needs to be.

More to come.

joe brennan

 

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 Posted: Sun Oct 7th, 2007 11:00 pm
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Jeff Bowles
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Joe
I think the point Ed is driving at is that with Red dot, is that you can use it for a variety of different calibers and only have to buy one inexpensive powder.

Not that what you are citing is wrong, good info for sure...
But for just causal plinking it works at a low cost...

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 06:32 am
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Joe Brennan
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John Bischoff is Quickloading away, matching charges to the velocities of THE LOAD. Here's what is done to date. John added info on % burned, IMR4227 was chosen because it's popular and doesn't completely burn. This sorted by max 30/06 pressure.

I"M NOT RECOMMENDING ANY LOADS HERE!!!!!!!

SUMMARY

 

31141 176 grains, 24 inch barrel

13.0 Red Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      35502            1654

30-40   34240            1638

30-06   27349            1576   Peak psi at 0.3 inch bullet travel

 

Green Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      34132            1654

30-40   32950            1638

30-06   26390            1576

 

13.2 Unique

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      29183            1655

30-40   28245            1640

30-06   22571            1575

 

Herco

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      27561            1656

30-40   26704            1640

30-06   21373            1574

 

Blue Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      19453            1656

30-40   18932            1640

30-06   15121            1561

 

2400

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      17346            1658            100%

30-40   16921            1641            100%

30-06   13552            1554            100% at 20.2 inches bullet travel

 

IMR 4227

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      15577            1658            96.6%

30-40   15194            1640            96.6%

30-06   12086            1537            94.4%

 

As you can see, for at least the 31141 the spectrum of old Hercules-now Alliant powders will do about the same thing. My favorite, Unique, which works from 22 Hornet to 45/70 (600 Nitro Express) operates to give the same velocity with substantially less pressure. Now Unique is accurate, and Blue Dot, 2400 and IMR4227 are used by a lot of folks who find them accurate. Herco is in the Lyman manuals. Green Dot is a mystery to me, I can't recall hearing of it used in rifle cartridges.

More coming;

joe b.

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 07:03 am
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Joe Brennan
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A little about some other aspects of THE LOAD.

Handloader's Digest, 1997, "Case capacity for cartridges fired in sporting chambers", pp. 448-449

'Usable Case Capacity" is the volume of entire case interior minus volume occupied by seated bullet.

                                    Usable cc Grs. Water

.303 British                    50.6

.308 Win. Mil                  52.0

.444 Marlin                    51.2

.308 Win.                       52.9

30/40 Krag                    53.8
8 X 57 Mauser                56.9

.45-70                           62.7

.35 Whelen                    63.6

.30-'06                          67.6

.458 Winchester.            74.7     

.375 H&H                       86.5

I'm thinking that any set of cartridge cases with about the same volume will shoot about the same bullet weight with about the same velocity. This works best well below maximum pressure and velocity.

The 45/70 will shoot well with 13-15 grains of Unique, does it for me, has for 57 years, does it for many others, it's in the loading manuals. Also, my offhand load was 12 Unique in 30/06, any bullet. So Unique is able to "work" over a broad spectrum of cartridge case sizes and bullet weights. As are any number of other powders.

The old Hercules now Alliant powders, I've read somewhere more than once, are made of the same "stuff" with different shape/size and deterrent coating. Except Bullseye and 2400, all contain 20% nitroglycerine, according to the reference cited above. Bullseye 40%, 2400 15%.

Same book, pp. 438-439

Powder            Bulk Density % Nitroglycerine

Red Dot           .480                 20

Green Dot        .515                 20

Unique             .610                 20

Herco              .570                 20

Blue Dot          .780                 20

2400                .870                 15

 

Red Dot has the lowest density, therefore takes up more volume in the case for a given charge. This is an advantage in the war against double charging but I don't see it as an enormous advantage since we all look in every loaded case every time to assure that the double charging demon hasn't been at work.

 

I, and others, have seen increased accuracy with Dacron, kapok, toilet paper or milkweed pod fuzz over light charges of Unique and others of these powders. In particular, a Dacron wad over 14/Unique and any bullet from 300-550 grains in 45/70 has worked well for many years and countless thousands of shots. While the dreaded and extremely rare, (maybe imaginary), Dacron Wad Chamber Ring must be kept in mind, and novices warned about the dangers, that Dacron worked for the Colonel and it works for me.

 

I don't know what powder cost back in the old days, but I can buy a pound of about any powder here, with sales tax, for $25 a pound or less. My rule of thumb is that costs have increased 10 X since 1960, so I'd guess that powder cost ~$2.50 back then. If so, then real powder costs haven't gone up a lot in 57 years. In the cast bullet arena we tend to shoot smaller quantities of powder of whatever type, so the cost advantage of THE LOAD may be at least partly illusory.

 

More to come

joe b. 

 

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 08:15 am
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Dan Willems
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My gosh Joe, you ought to get with the powder manufacturers and let them in on the QuickLoad computer software secret you are using to find the perfect powder.  Then they could eliminate half of their worthless powders that don't compute correctly in Quickbooks! From my experiences, I see there is a reasonable range that most reasonable powder choices will work. Narrowing it down to a powder from a Quickbook sheet is foolishness, as that is only meant as a guideline. Actual results will vary, some greatly.

I have plenty of pistol powders such as the most notable Unique, but I find pistol powders still need a higher degree of pressures and velocity for complete combustion in reduced rifle loads, which is one reason for crimping pistol cases. I don't have shotgun powders so to speak and am interested to try some in reduced (velocity & price) loads for off-hand shooting.

 

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 02:13 pm
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billwnr
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Joe, If you want to run a test on your hardness/pressure formula then tell me how 30 grains of Vitavouri N-135 is supposed to do in a .30BR case with a .311299 bullet and a BHN of 19. Let me know if it says the bullet is too soft for the chamber pressure.

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 05:42 pm
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Joe Brennan
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Dan Willems wrote: My gosh Joe, you ought to get with the powder manufacturers and let them in on the QuickLoad computer software secret you are using to find the perfect powder.  Then they could eliminate half of their worthless powders that don't compute correctly in Quickbooks! From my experiences, I see there is a reasonable range that most reasonable powder choices will work. Narrowing it down to a powder from a Quickbook sheet is foolishness, as that is only meant as a guideline. Actual results will vary, some greatly.

I have plenty of pistol powders such as the most notable Unique, but I find pistol powders still need a higher degree of pressures and velocity for complete combustion in reduced rifle loads, which is one reason for crimping pistol cases. I don't have shotgun powders so to speak and am interested to try some in reduced (velocity & price) loads for off-hand shooting.

 


Dan;

I've read this over and over, and can only conclude that you just don't understand what's going on here.

Whatever you're talking about has nothing that I can see to do with what's going on here. If you have a specific question or complaint, please pm me and I'll try to help you out. Or just keep thrashing about.

If you want a fast powder to shoot low cost (maybe not) rifle loads, choose Red Dot, Blue Dot, Herco, Unique, 2400 or another. Some may be better than others for your application, but none is THE POWDER.

What is Quickbook, not an accounting program?

Have you ever used or had anyone run for you a load in Quickload?

Waiting for that pm.

joe brennan

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 06:05 pm
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Joe Brennan
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billwnr wrote: Joe, If you want to run a test on your hardness/pressure formula then tell me how 30 grains of Vitavouri N-135 is supposed to do in a .30BR case with a .311299 bullet and a BHN of 19. Let me know if it says the bullet is too soft for the chamber pressure.

Bill;

I don't have Quickload, and rely on others to run the loads for me. I have some problems with the program, one that QL assumes primer choice doesn't vary pressure when we have strong evidence that primers vary pressure a lot in near-maximum loads. Now we have no way to measure pressure in a hobby-bucks world, and QL gives us a reasonable estimate of pressure. We CAN measure velocity, and QL seems to estimate velocity very accurately.

In the book we deal with the notion that there is a precise relationship between pressure and BHN for accuracy with lead alloy bullets. In the book there is a list of the articles/books that I was able to find that propound this notion, with several formulae and a lot of pseudo-scientific explanation. My conclusion is that the notion is BS, the formulae are BS, and that there is no precise relationship.

So, it ain't my formula. If I'm correct, QL doesn't include the 30BR in the list of ctgs., QL doesn't include some powders that I like, such as SR4759.

I'll ask Bill, to make sure, and if he can and will, I'll get back to you with the pressure.The formula is BHN X either 3X480 or 1422, and sometimes plus 15000, is the pressure that that bullet will see and operate accurately. EX 19 X 480 X 3 = 27360 ; A BHN 19 bullet needs 27360 psi to operate accurately, or at 27360 BHN must be 19. Now the descriptions vary about what happens when, "must be between 3X480 and 4X 480, accuracy declines when BHN is too high, yada yada yada. It's all nonsense. Or, THE LOAD, 13/Red Dot, can't work.

I have no hope of making this foolishness go away, once written-particularly if it has a formula and words like "ultimate compressive strength" and "obturation"; it will have a life of its own, and will outlive all of us. Hence my interest in making sure that that which is written, even and especially here, is correct. BS seems to live forever.

joe b. 

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 06:56 pm
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billwnr
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If this load shows the pressure is to high for the BHN...then the assumption that the pressure is too high for the Red Dot may be off too.

The N135 load I quoted you is shot by a fair number of people with a BHN of 18-22. We surmised the chamber pressure of this load isn't a mild load.

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 Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 10:33 pm
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Jeff Bowles
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Jeff Bowles wrote: Joe
I think the point Ed is driving at is that with Red dot, is that you can use it for a variety of different calibers and only have to buy one inexpensive powder.

Not that what you are citing is wrong, good info for sure...
But for just causal plinking it works at a low cost...


Joe again I will say this again and only once again.

Ed's stated point is and I quote:


"Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!"


You are welcome to start a new post to further discuss this, but with all of the talk of pressures, quickload data, etc... This is rapidly going off topic as Ed's point is how to get more bang for the buck and not how the data in quickload disputes his findings.

If you would like to continue the discussion in the direction you want it to go, please start a new post on the subject. It is discourteous and rude to hi-jack someone elses thread.

Jeff
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 Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 08:54 pm
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David M44
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Ed, while working on "The Load" did you ever get up into the 17 to 18 gr. range while working with the 7.62x54R? I am looking for 1700 1800 fps with a 200 gr. bullet.

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 Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 08:00 am
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Ed Harris
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That would be waaay too much Red Dot!



____________________
In Home Mix We Trust
From the Home of Ed's Red
In Almost Heaven, West Virginia
Regards, Ed
73 de KE4SKY
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 Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 05:47 am
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giorgio de galleani
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Dear Ed,the server tells me my reply might not have been delivered.Theese computers and email business are misteries  to me

Anyhow,I would prefer 303 dies because they should have larger diameter,as I have no primer seating chamber rimless or rimmed will be gladly accepted.

Wonderful country your West Virginia ,I 'll send you some pictures of my own next week.

Best regards,Giorgio.

 



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Giorgio de Galleani,alias Buffalo George Dega
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The Cast Bullet Association Inc. Forum > Reloading > Powder > "The Load" Is 13 grains of Red Dot Top


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