The 227299

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  • Last Post 16 July 2014
joeb33050 posted this 03 November 2013

In 2003 I spent a lot of money and time not getting a Savage 12BVSS in 223 Rem to shoot accurately. In January 2013 I bought a Savage12FV and have spent the intervening ten months duplicating the ten year old failure. I have a Lyman 225415 mold that doesn't help, and just got a Lyman 225646 that looks to continue the march. I've considered a Shilen 5.7 X 28 barrel and attendant apparatus, and a 221 Fireball barrel-but came to my senses before the cash went down the swirley. I think that the problem is the mold design. The Lyman 31X299 is the best 30 caliber gas checked cast bullet designed to date. The Lyman 22 designs aren't close. Enter the 227299. Let us design a bullet with the advantages of the 31X299, in 22 caliber. I can't draw, can't cad, (can dance), and know that there's a cad/drawer out there. Here are some numbers to get us going. 31X299 is about 1.175” long, weighs around 200 grains. In 22 caliber: 227299
BULLET MINIMUM EST. WT.B.C. WIND DRIFT LENGTH “TWIST “ GRAINS 31X299=1 31X299=1 1.175 6.4 109 1 1 1.1 6.8 102 0.94 1.07 1 7.5 92 0.84 1.18 0.9 8.3 83 0.76 1.31 0.8 9.4 74 0.68 1.47 0.7 10.7 65 0.60 1.68 0.6 12.5 55 0.50 1.98 0.5 15 46 0.42 2.37 Minimum Twist is Greenhill, Est. Wt. is my estimator. B.C. is ballistic coefficient. If we call the B.C. of 31X299 1, then B.C. of a 22 caliber version the same length is 1, and B.C. falls as bullet length is decreased. Wind drift varies as B.C., inversely. The shorter the bullet, the more the wind drift.

So, for my 9” twist rifle, a bullet .8” long weighing 74 grains would have a B.C. = .68 times 31X299 B.C., and wind drift would be 1.47 times 31X299 wind drift.

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frnkeore posted this 16 July 2014

Al Nelson (NOE)is looking to make newly designed molds to sell and has his own forum now, for that purpose.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php

It still takes 15 buyers for him to make the tooling to cut the molds. If you guys would like, I'll post the above bullet design to be discussed.

One thing we didn't talk about is adding a leade angle to the front band to match the chamber, that's a option.

Frank

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John Alexander posted this 15 December 2013

Jeff Houck wrote: opps-----missed getting the question in on the last post for John Alexander ---- how does the LBT design differ from others? Jeff Houck Jeff, Sorry to be so long in replying.   The bullet designs being proposed in this thread are bore riding nose designs -- one approach to cast bullets and one some of us like because if fitted right they can be made to shoot very well. Veral Smith (Mr. LBT) has other ways of approaching bullet design and if fitted right they also shoot very well. Veral doesn't like bore riders.  In his own words -- "I detest bore ride nose bullets because if they fit well enough to do any good they constantly stick when a live round is ejected.”   Veral is a very smart guy, a great mold maker, and bullet designer.  The best way to understand his approach to bullet designs is to read his on-line catalog.  It is well worth the read anyway.  It is also well worth the price to buy Veral's book  "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets.”   John

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frnkeore posted this 12 December 2013

A little more areodynamic design.

frnkeore posted this 12 December 2013

Updated, .227 base band, .15 of base in the case neck, .850 long, tapered front band, .020 more bore ride.

frnkeore posted this 12 December 2013

I can't seem to post muliple pics in one reply

frnkeore posted this 12 December 2013

I'll try to re-post the drawings and see if the new forum format will take them from me. Frank

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 December 2013

getting serious, eh ??

ok, it occured to me to finally wonder how much contact the various tapers would get us ... i have chambered several rifles with a 1 degree throat ... figuring wow that has to be good ... and they did shoot well ... but ... ( blush ) never ...er ... never knew how much actual guidance i wuz getting.

being trigonometrically declined, i found an app at www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Tan_Calculator to play with.

did you know that 1^ included only contacts 0.2 in. for a 22 bullet? we need a 1/2 ^ included to support 1/2 inch of a 22 bullet.

yep, i know .. soft lead will distort to fill any throat angle ... but do we wish to shoot bent bullets ?

ken

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jeff houck posted this 12 December 2013

opps-----missed getting the question in on the last post for John Alexander ---- how does the LBT design differ from others? Jeff Houck

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jeff houck posted this 12 December 2013

 The LBT approach to bullet design might be a better design for AR use.

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Paul Pollard posted this 12 December 2013

Not to alarm anyone”¦the drawings went away. Did you try to fiddle with this again, John? Remember what happened last time?

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2013

The posts were made this morning over on the “223 update thread.  I thought I would copy them here because they have more to do with bullet design. joeb33050 wrote: If throats wear that fast, I'm wondering if a bore ride nose shouldn't be tapered. My 30 cal bullets are seated out further as throat wears, but no as much/quickly as the 22s.=========Joe, I was just thinking the same thing after remembering that I have seen the noses engraved more on the front than the rear. I was going to post something to for people interested in designing a 22 bullet that works. Maybe you and Frank are right and I am wrong in the discussion we have been having under 225299.  It wouldn't be the first time. John

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2013

Tom, Different strokes for different folks I guess.  Thanks for making an investment in getting him to see the advantages of belonging to the CBA.  Thanks Ken for the offer to do the same. I am often amazed that the number of forum members who don't belong to the CBA.  If we could get more to join and then get them to share their considerable knowledge about CB shooting with short articles in the Fouling Shot we would all be better off and having a stronger CBA would ensure that this forum would continue to be paid for and maintained for us to enjoy. Something to think about. John

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 December 2013

Joe,

He holds the MN State 100-yard CBA BR Heavy score (200-9x) and 10-round group (0.309") records. I've bought his CBA membership twice but he lets it lapse. He has become very sensitive to recoil and adjacent rifle concussions at the line so he now just shoots air rifle, .22 rimfire and .223 in non-match settings.

Not sure how he makes the Lead Sled work though.

He will tell you the same thing Gary told us on another post...bullet fit KING! He has long been a proponent bumping bullets.

Tom

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 December 2013

hey tom ...tell your buddy we need more info on how to shoot inch groups with those pesky 22 guns ..

i would be glad to spring a years CBA membership for him if he feels like sharing with us .. let me know ..

ken

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John Alexander posted this 11 December 2013

Thanks for posting Tom.  If your friend is getting averages like the groups shown he is doing something right for sure.   I have sometimes found sizing bullets for the 223 as large as .227 worked well. I believe all the recent (last ten years) Savage or Stevens 223s have a one in nine inch twist.  I know nothing about the older ones. John

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2013

The shooter is a machinist and makes his own dies, etc. He shoots 5744 in just about everything he owns. There is another guy in our area who only uses 4756 in everything he owns. So as I delve into a new gun/load matrix, I always ask myself...should I be including those two powders?

It is also interesting what the sized diameter of those bullets is. Seems a bit fat for a 223 but what do I know!

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tturner53 posted this 11 December 2013

Thanks for posting that, Tom. It's useful to me re. the powder choice, 5744, and twist. I believe the Stevens .223 has a 12” twist. If so, this would support my suspicion that Greenhill doesn't apply quite so much in the little bores. Anyway, I'll be attempting to campaign a long for caliber/twist bullet in my .223. Now I'll give 5744 a try. I know, monkey see, monkey do!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 December 2013

i likka like that ..

ken

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2013

Here is the target pdf.

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2013

This post may not coincide with the 227299 subject, I don't know for sure. I don't own a .223 but a friend does. He recently sent me (3) targets he shot (attached). The notes are a bit sketchy but here is what I know. He is using a Savage Stevens with what he calls a “really skinny” barrel. There are two moulds involved, both NEI. One weighs 82-grains and the other 72-grains, which I think are both 6-cavity. He sizes them at 0.228” and he bumps the bullets in a 1⁰ taper bump die and the bases are very flat with sharp corners. The alloy is 50-50 (lino-mono) and the hardness is about 28 bhn. His preferred powder is AA 5744. Targets were shot at 100-yards, using a (Caldwell?) Lead Sled. The bullet photo is from a cell phone so it's a lousy photo.   Thought you .223 guys might be interested, IF the 227299 is a .223 subject.   Tom

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