Does The Case Brand Matter?

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Last Post 10 December 2009

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CB posted this 26 November 2006

I am sure this one will get some juices flowing..

Does the brand of case you use matter? Is one better than the other? How much does case weight consistancy influence where the bullets impact the target?

I personally think that as long as the cases are close in the volume of powder they can hold, then you should be alright for hunting or casual shooting with a good degree of accuracy.

However, when I shoot benchrest matches I favor Lapua Brass. For 2 years I used Remington brass until a friend gave me his Lapua brass with a gun I purchased from him. Being that I bought his rifle for a project, I used the brass in my production gun. (.308) I found the Lapua brass to be more consistant and quite a bit thicker than Remington. (note: the Lapua brass and Remington brass used were fashioned out of 30-06 brass because the neck portion of my production gun chamber measured out at 2.039 instead of the 2.015 SAMMI spec.) The additional case thickness helped with the reduced powder charge and also made the neck portion thicker so they could be turned to a consistant diameter to be used with Wilson Dies at the range.

I did turn the necks on the remington brass, however all I did was knock of the high spots and the neck thickness that resulted was only .014, the Lapua was .026 almost twice the thickness of the remington.

The remington brass developed a 'donut' just below the portion of the neck where the wilson die did not size. The lapua brass did not.

I have since passed the remington brass on to my wife who has starting shooting in our club matches with the gun that was going to be my project gun. She has been doing pretty well, but I would like her to do better. So right now I am working on making 300 brand new Lapua 30-06 cases into .308 so we will have enough for both guns.

For my money I think that for competitive shooting one should use the best materials available if you want to have the best accuracy.

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JetMech posted this 10 December 2009

Jerry,

When you buy in bulk, and it would seem to be all the same manufacturing lot, what kind of weight variation do you get?

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CB posted this 10 December 2009

When I buy brass, I get all the same brand and if possible the same lot. Then weigh them, check the length and a few other things. Then load them and shoot them.

If I buy match brass, it is all the same lot and I always buy an extra 100 or more from ones that seem to run away from me. I check all of the variables on match brass every time I load the brass.

Jerry

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billwnr posted this 06 December 2009

Bill, I'd try to get my brass +/- 1 grain and call it good. I'd like 200 rounds as that's enough for two matches and allows one to rotate thru the cases without having to weigh bullets(should the shooter be obsessive compulsive, such as me). 13 grains different like you cited is too much and will affect accuracy.

I shot a record target in 2006 with unweighed cases that when checked had an extreme weight spread of 7 grains. I have more confidence with the Lapua cases but can't make a definitive claim that they are a necessity for high accuracy.

Based on how benchrest cases are selected, using Lapua cases in the .30/06 should result in tighter groups/higher scores as they are more uniform in all categories.

If I was using range brass I would want the cases all fired the same amount of time as material hardness is affected by the amount of resizings and I would want the neck tension to be uniform among the bunch of “match” cases I used.

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hunterspistol posted this 06 December 2009

:coffee Not meaning to introduce new variables is a good thing. Another consideration that we have, as silhouette shooters, is case life. While a thinner case will be lighter and have more capacity sometimes, we get the thickest and heaviest just to make sure we can feed those 40-60 round matches. I remember when my Remington cases started falling apart and I was fishing the brass back out of a 22 Hornet. That's when I opted for the Winchester. Case head seperations from worn out brass make you pick the thickest, best brass you can get.

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tturner53 posted this 06 December 2009

I agree consistency in all things is necessary for accurate ammo, what I'm wondering is how accurate of a rifle (and driver) does it take to be able to measure the difference in group size between Lapua brass and weight sorted cheap brass? If you fireform first and weight check the case volume has got to be pretty darn close. Of course I'd have Lapua if it was in my budget, why not have the best? But a lot of very small groups are shot with brand x.. I guess if I'd invested the time and money in building a serious BR gun I'd go all the way on the brass too. Then there's just the satisfaction of knowing you have high quality stuff. I just did a trade here on the forum for some Norma 7.62X54R, I look forward to using it more than the several other brands I'm acquiring, just because it's Norma.

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JetMech posted this 06 December 2009

Until now, I did as some folks here who can't afford Lapua or even to necessarily by able to afford to buy cases. I scrounged. Right now, I have 196 Federal 30-06 cases I've collected. The only scale I had is a balance beam RCBS and found that weight sorting to be a PITA. So I purchased a cheap digital scale, trimmed all cases and neck turned to remove the high spots. Neck thickness came out to .014. So I took my 196 cases and started weight sorting. What I found was that 124 weighed between 195 and 198 gn. 21 weighed 202+, and the 51 remaining weighed between 182.5 and 185. So the lighter cases have about a 7% increase in capacity, assuming the brass density is equal (I think that's a reasonable assumption, even though there may be a difference, I don't think it would change the capacity significantly). So even with hunting loads, I will be weight sorting my cases. All measureable dimensions being equal and necks annealed, I think it's reasonable to assume you'ld get better consistantcy with cases matched for weight rather than manufacturer. Still have R-P, LC and Winchester cases to prep the same way for comparison.

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roadie posted this 15 July 2009

runfiverun, I do pretty much the same, I try different brass to find a load, I just don't use mixed brass for the same gun. The brass I use stays with the gun the load was built for.

Many years ago, a Stevens 340 in .22 Hornet taught in a rude kinda way that Remington brass is different to Winchester in capacity. Especially when the load is near max. My .22 Squirrel (sort of) is even quicker at reminding me of that.

Larger capacity cases are more forgiving and no doubt it's usually not going to be a problem to mix cases. I agree with you on the brass composition making a difference.

I like your choices in calibers, both the .257 and 7x57 are among my favorites. Standard and Improved.

roadie

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GL49 posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo, I'm like roadie, I sort my cases by headstamp and don't mix them, just to eliminate another variable in my loads. My friends think I'm wasting my time, but that's just what I prefer. I shoot no better, nor no worse, than they do, but we don't shoot benchrest for group size, either. Just a MOA hunting load is all we are after.
I noticed that you were considering hunting with a pistol, and my experience with my 44 magnums and 357's lead me to recommend that you stay away from R-P brass for heavy loads. In my 44, neither my RCBS nor Lee sizing die will size them small enough to get a firm case grip on a jacketed bullet or a cast bullet sized at .429. With a large charge of slow powder, a firm case grip and crimp is required for proper ignition. Any of my remington brass is saved for cast bullets that I will load at low 44 spl levels for practice. My Federal, Winchester and Starline brass (and OF COURSE they are sorted) have worked well for magnum level loads. My S&W 44 magnum mountain gun has the cylinder throats sized at .429, and I can't stand the thought of a .431 cast bullet trying to squeeze out of the cylinder as soon as I pull the trigger with a close to maximum load. In my other S&W and two Rugers, I size my bullets .431. In my 32 acp, I had to purchase an undersized sizing die to size my R-P brass small enough to grip the bullet. I can see no difference in how Winchester, Remington, military, or Federal brass shoot in my rifles, but they all have been trimmed, the flash holes reamed and bevelled, and never shot for group until they have been fired in my rifles and then sized again. I have always worked on my brass before I shoot it. Now that I have bashed Remington brass I'll tell you that Remington is what I prefer for my rifles. Weird, huh.

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runfiverun posted this 14 July 2009

i must be different in the way i approach this i do try different types of brass in each rifle,for my 7x57 and 7x57 ackley they seem to prefer remington brass and remington primers in their load.

my wifes rifle likes winchester 257 bob +p,and a 145 gr boolit. and my daughters 7x57 likes federal brass and a 168 gr boolit. but both shoot the same jacketed load as well as anything else worked up in them and they both like federal primers too.

even my hunting brass gets trimmed champhered,primer holes de-burred,and pockets cut.

then they are fired and the 50 that shoot best to the x are put in a case and labeled for the rifle, loaded with the chosen hunting load and not used for anything else.the rest are used for practice and plinking.

i have even used different brands of brass for jacketed and cast loads as that is what they seem to prefer. in my 30-30 it gets win brass for full power jacketed loads and remington for full power cast loads,and win for the plinking/ small game loads.

don't know why it just works out like this, even though most of my rifles are plain jane hunting rifles, i pick at them till they shoot as good as they can,even the cast loads shoot under an inch at 100. and not at sedate velocities either most are in the 2200 or more area and some of them take forever to make them do it.

not only does the thinness/thickness variations of a lot of brass make a difference i think the composition of a brasses make up, and it's expansion/contraction ratio makes a bit of difference in a rifle also. kinda like how groups can come and go with the annealing process,sometimes you have to work harden the brass a bit after annealing to get the groups to come back.

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roadie posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo, In your case, because you know your rifle and you know the bullet impact will be within 2 inches of POA and well into the kill zone, case mixing has no importance at all. You know where it will impact. I just don't like to introduce new variables when I don't have to.

roadie

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KenK posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Ken K and roadie,

Maybe I need to rephrase the question. What I am really trying to find out is how important is the brand of brass for accuracy in a hunting load?

I don't think it is important in the least for the average big game hunter.

Lapua brass sure is nice though. I wish they made more.

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canalupo posted this 14 July 2009

Ken K and roadie,

Maybe I need to rephrase the question. What is the group most expect with a round out to 300 yds? Does the brass matter in this case or are we talking about bench rest? What I am really trying to find out is how important is the brand of brass for accuracy in a hunting load?

At 100 yards most of my groups are around 1 inch, at 300 yards around four or five if the wind is being cooperative. I routinely mix brass. In forty years of hunting, I can count the wounded big game animals on one hand ( and 30 or 40 in the freezer). I usually hunt with jacketed bullets and save the cast for plinking and small game under 100 yards, in PA almost all shots are under 100yds. I also hunt with a handgun. This year I am going to try cast in my contender pistol.

Thanks Bob D

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roadie posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Please clarify something for me.

The controversy over case brand eludes me. I am mostly a hunter and shooter and accuracy out to 300 yards is academic. I know I could hit a deer at 300 yards.

However is it important, to a hunter type like me, to have a 1 inch group or a five inch group? It may be everything to a bench rest, target shooter.

It seems that if you are weighing your powder charge and all the charges are the same, the case volume is not a deciding factor, for my needs and accuracy. Your pressure may be slightly higher for smaller volume cases but how much does that truely affect groups for my use. I agree if I was shooting at butterflies at 300 yd, the group would matter, but a moose at 200 yds?

Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

I guess for me, it's a matter of consistency, I generally don't mix brass unless it's shown itself to be close to each other. I don't bench shoot, I just look for a good accurate load. In a hunting load, 5 inches at 100 yds. is not gonna cut it, I expect MOA at least or that load is crap. I've seen far too many “hunters” sight in their rifles at 100 yds., (after finding paper at 25), blast off 5 rounds, get a “group” somewhere's around 6 - 10 inches and call it ready to hunt. A few of them then proceed to gut shoot whatever unfortunate critter ends up in their scope. A lot of these fellows are somewhat intimidated by the cannons they have chosen to shoot.

Mixing brass, even in a hunting load situation, just adds more variables to open up groups. Apart from the obvious pressure dangers from using a max load, there is also the first round out of a cold barrel POI shift which has potential to be rather large. Granted many rifles don't exhibit that particular tendency, but many do. There is also the matter of case neck tension to consider. Couple that with an “accepted” load that groups 5 inches and the first cold barrel shot shifting impact 2 inches, and possibly a touch of “buck fever” thrown in and last day of the season and you have all the makings for a gut shot moose.

My hunting loads are same brass, same lot and accurate, I have no desire to trail up game after I shoot. I want them dead right there at whatever range I shoot. I tend to pick my shots and prefer that the animal not know I'm there. Small game reduced loads, I will mix, so long as the accuacy is there, plinking loads can be a whole mess of different brass, no problem there. Were I doing a lot of benchrest shooting, I would stay with one case lot, one brand, unless testing showed that there was'nt a great spread when mixing.

Serious loads have to be consistent, so if I miss, it's not the guns fault, it's mine.

my 2 cents, roadie

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KenK posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

I think it is fair to say that most of us here don't see casting/reloading/shooting as a means to an end. It's what we do.

Hunting is a completely seperate thing, to me.

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canalupo posted this 14 July 2009

Please clarify something for me.

The controversy over case brand eludes me. I am mostly a hunter and shooter and accuracy out to 300 yards is academic. I know I could hit a deer at 300 yards.

However is it important, to a hunter type like me, to have a 1 inch group or a five inch group? It may be everything to a bench rest, target shooter.

Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

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duck hollow pete posted this 13 July 2009

How about neck tension,Two weeks ago I sat down with a mix of 06 brass( mil issue &com.)old new you name it it was in there. This brass was preped and primed 25 yrs ago for cast loads for my DCM M1 I got in 82 for high power practice, got sidetracked. Anyways I got me a M die with that long mandrel boy can you feel the difference in neck tension as to that small expander button got to make some type of a difference.P S ED my 311291's at 309 are a snug fit in fired brass from my 03a3 a shade looser from the M1 and a nogo from my eddystone( new rem. 125 grs managed recoil).

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CB posted this 12 July 2009

Jeff

This is a interesting Thread with all good answers. I shoot CF BR with a 22 & PPC. I also shoot allot of cast bullet in several rifle and pistol cartridges.Like most I have shot many brands of brass. One that hasn't been discussed yet is making .222 out of .223. I have done this since I was a sprout. One reason was the availalibilty of GI brass and the extra energy I had to trim the xtra long neck once run through the .222 FL die. Back then I used a Forrester trimmer. If I make some more I will use the Lee trimmer and save my hand. It is my belief that hunting and casual range shooting does not need brass that a BR shooter might use. In BR work case preparation does wonders. But shooting is not 95% case prepartion as one Poster stated in another Thread. Having a competitive rifle and superior bench skills that day determines the winner.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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JetMech posted this 05 November 2008

withdrawn

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hunterspistol posted this 12 October 2008

:armyhelmet: Myself being new to some things, I only know what I've read about particular things. According to sources for reloading in silhouette shootin', the difference in Remington and Winchester are there. Remington is supposed to be a thinner, therefore high volume case. Winchester and Starline are close but, Starline is the thicker of those two. So, if a guy is comparing weight, or, in my case, loads to one tenth grains then, you'd more than likely want the same brand of brass. If not the same brand, the same lot even.

That's just the basic stuff from down here.