"Old School Boltguns"

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2013

UPDATED 21 Sept. 2013

Dennis Carlini, Dick Nearing and I have been fooling with some old .30-'06 sporters with cast bullets and have been having great fun!

Dennis is shooting a ca.1929 NRA Sporter.

I've been shooting a Winchester Model 54 made in 1934 and a German-built Euro sporter by Ernst Appel of Wurzburg.

Dick Nearing has been shooting a National Match 03.

Our goal has been to attain 2 inches or less at 100 yards, firing hunting type rifles with loads assembled for the goal of maximum economy and fun. We are using wheelweight alloy, casting bullets in bulk from gang molds, sticking to non-gaschecked loads at suitable velocities from 1000-1300 fps or so.

Early work was mostly with my NEI #69, 160 grains when cast of wheelweights, with charges from 6 to 9 grains of Bullseye.

Two “sweet” spots were observed. The first is in the subsonic range at 6 grains of Bullseye. Groups with heavier charges from 6.5 to 7.5 are entirely acceptable, but less consistent, I believe because bullets are subjected to transonic buffeting as they go subsonic before 100 yards. The second sweet spot appears at 7.8 grains where group averages tighten again to under 2” and they remain so up to the threshold of leading, which is about 9 grains of Bullseye in a smooth barrel, without a GC, approaching 1400 fps.

We have since gone over to similar bullets cast from new Heavy Metal .312-160-5 molds from the latest group buy. These seem to perform exactly like the old Walt Melander Scapoose, OR mold from the mid-1980s.

So we have met our project objective, achieving an average of 2” or less for five consecutive 5 shot groups, in a series of 25 consecutive rounds, discarding no data, at 100 yards.

With the best loads an average of 2 inches for a series of five ten-shot groups is attainable using a hunting scope of less than 6X, with our best “tweaked” loads.

Experimentation continues, but if anybody else has stepped into this pool, please share what has worked for you and in what rifle!

"Cheating,” firing my Mauser '06 sporter with 4x32mm Zeiss Diatal C scope, using bottom post of duplex reticle as aiming point, best series to date, five consecutive 5-shot group at 100 yds. averaged 1.56” with NEI #69, as cast, unsized, tumbled in LLA with 8.4 grs. Bullseye, for 1328 fps.

I later repeated testing this same charge using bullets cast from my new Heavy Metal .312-160-5 mold, firing 10-shot groups and got an average of 2.1” so I am happy.

Our advice is NOT to work up loads over the chronograph without actually shooting groups on paper. Just “watching the numbers” is a distraction from the real goal, which is ACCURACY!

When doing initial load workup, shooting only TEN SHOT groups is a great time saver, because doing so separates the “grand” from the ordinary very quickly. There are no “lucky” ten shot groups. If you get a round group with a dense center, THAT shows promise and is worth trying again.

--------------------DEFINING THE THREAD----------------

My own thought is that classic American “Old School” boltguns ended with the demise of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70. While there were earlier plunger ejector rifles, after the mid-1960s these became the dominant type and most hunting boltguns were no longer “Controlled Round” feed, in which the cartridge is guided under the extractor hook as it is stripped from the magazine. But if somebody has a “push-feeder” made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

Because this is not a formal competition class, but just a discussion topic, sporterized militaries are great, as long they are based on the classic Mauser, Springfield, Krag, etc. boltguns.

This thread is strictly nonofficial so we shall be tolerant of all nationalities and denominations as long as it is a boltgun in a “deer” caliber.

What have you got? What bullets and loads do you use, and what results have you gotten. Inquiring minds want to know.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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gpidaho posted this 06 November 2015

As sporters go, I'm so proud of the Mauser that corerf sold me. You've all seen the pictures when it was up for sale here. The rifle has been changed to the sporter configuration(very professionally) It's been fired but if it's more than just proofing it doesn't show. All numbers match and all markings are sharp and clear. Thanks Mike for a truly great old rifle. Gp

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M3 Mitch posted this 06 November 2015

One of my best shooters is a 1948 Model 70 in 30-06. I found a good old Lyman 48 peep sight and installed. Minute of beer can out to about 80 yards, shooting offhand. Most common plinking load is a 3118 cast from a 4-cavity mold, backed by a light charge of 2400, or Unique.

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fRANK46 posted this 10 May 2014

Big spender nope I don't think so. Back when I lived on Long Island NY, I used to haunt most of the gun shops back from the 80's till late 1995 when I moved to Louisiana. Seems me and the wife didn't want to spend our golden years shoveling snow. Which many of the folks up that way did a lot of this past winter. I bought the 54 win bbld action like I said for $75, than a few years later here in Louisiana came upon the semi reworked marksman stock. The barrel I already had. Over the years I've been sort of like a pack rat when it comes to spare parts. From Texas,Pennsylvania and of course New york find some little widgit I couldn't live without. I guess many of us have done the same over the years. Still looking for the steel lyman 57 sme I put away for safekeeping. well its so put away frequent searches have turned up nada. Thanks for listening to my rant. Frank

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RicinYakima posted this 12 November 2013

You paid $75 for a barreled action! You are a big spender! Frank, we are not getting younger. Put the rifle together and have fun shooting it. Ric

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fRANK46 posted this 12 November 2013

After reading these posts, kinda want to put a new/old mauser bull barrel on my 54 win action made in 1928 and set up for the 30-30 cartridge. Bought the barreled action many years ago from Logan Arms in Brooklyn NY. Barrel was a coal mine. Do have a old win marksman stock and would need some tweaking with the inletting. Have had all the parts sitting around for years. May just be the time to get them all together. The bull bbl for the mauser is chambered in 308 and threaded for the 98 mauser. You'd probably laugh if I told you what all of the above cost years ago. $75 for the 54 win bbld action, $25 for the stock,and $5 for the barrel. Hava a good laugh on me.Frank

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Bob S posted this 10 October 2013

See the Remington 721 thread ...... :D

Resp'y, Bob S.

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RicinYakima posted this 17 September 2013

Nice group of Springfields. One thing I have learned from living in the desert for the last 37 years: it is hell on old scopes and wood stocks.

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delmarskid1 posted this 17 September 2013

THAT is what I like to see! Burn 'em up and go look at the targets. I'm not having as much luck with the plain base bullets but I'm going to keep trying.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

Not my Unertl, the '03s all belong to Dennis Carlini. Dick Thomas rebuilt the 8X some years ago.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2013

Nice Springfields! How is your Unertl holding up? I went through 3, lens separations from recoil/low humidity, over the last 20 years. Now I am using a little 4 power Fecker that seems to be holding up. Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

For the low noise and low recoil, as light as 6 grains of Bullseye works well, is accurate enough for a training load and is also subsonic, 1087 fps from my Winchester 54.

The two “sweet spots” we've observed firing a group of four '03s, one Mauser and two Winchester 54s is either subsonic, using 6 grains of Bullseye, otherwise avoiding charges above 6 grains of Bullseye until you get to up 7.8, because 100-yard groups enlarge slightly, due to transonic buffeting with those loads as they go subsonic before 100 yards, then at 7.8 of Bullseye or 8.5 of WST the groups tighten nicely again and remain very good all the way up to 9 grains of Bullseye in a smooth barrel. That is maximum, because above that you will get leading if shooting without the GC.

Eye candy, the four 03s:

Front, NRA Sporter Next, M1903 NM with Lyman sights and “C” stock Third, 1942 USMC Unertl Sniper Last Remington 03A4

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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badgeredd posted this 16 September 2013

Ed,

You've convinced me to get going on my '06 sporters. I have 2 17 Enfields (Winchester manufacture) and a low number 03 that I've not messed with because of other project rifles. For the most part I tend to try to duplicate original ball loads with cast bullets, mainly to see if I can. Since I have 2 grandsons that are really taking an interest in shooting, it seems appropriate to work up some loads for their amusement (as well as mine). Thanks for the information and the JT Knives group buy design.

Edd

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Ed Harris posted this 16 September 2013

OK, here are results of today's testing in my scoped Mauser .30-'06 Sporter, sixty shots continuous without cleaning: four ten-shot groups plus one 20-shot group which includes a “weather report” since the wind caught me on the first ten shots and spoiled the group, so I repeated another ten rounds on top of the first ten. Nothing excluded, the results speak for themselves.

2” ten shot groups at 100 yards, with hunting weight rifle, hunting scope, bullets cast from a gang mold, GI ball cases, Remington 9-1/2 primers, measured charges of 8.4 grains Bullseye, bullets from wheelweights, as-cast, unsized, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, no filler, no attempt whatever to orient the powder charge, shove'em in, and bang each 5 rounds off from the magazine in about 30 seconds, reload, repeat. Wait 5 minutes between each rapid-fire group, except for the group of 20, in which case I fired double strings from sandbags, back to back with the last ten from a hot barrel, letting the wind to blow the heat mirage out of the scope as if repelling a charging horde of bunny wabbits! 19 of 20 shots under 3", the flier opening the 20 shot group to about 4". This is reality.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Chargar posted this 14 September 2013

OK..I will play with this rifle. I rescued it from a Corpus Christi pawnshop about 6 years ago for $450.00. I had the old Weaver K3 at the house. Caliber is 30-06 of course. It was made in 1954. I cleaned and decoppered the barrel but have never fired it. Bore looks to be perfect. About time this old girl goes to work.

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

The SecNav Trophy Rifles are rare collectibles. I was told by the late Tom Sharp of Remington that when WW2 broke out that their entire inventory of .30-'06 rifles was turned over to the government for potential issue to defense plant guards, etc. There were adequate M1917s and other rifles to serve that purpose, so the 720s were sat aside and ended up at NWSC Crane, IN. Maj. Kam Hayden, USMC and VAdm. Lloyd M. Mustin, USN, prevented their being scrapped as surplus property and thus started the SecNav Trophy presentations.

This following info comes from the NRA Museum web site:

The Remington Model 720 bolt action rifle, intended to compete with Winchester's popular Model 70, was produced in limited numbers until Second World War military requirements forced its discontinuation. Even some knowledgeable collectors and firearms historians may not be familiar with these rifles. Introduced by Remington in mid- to late-1941, the Model 720 was billed as an improvement over its predecessor, the Model 30S. The Ilion, New York arms maker offered these in .270 Winchester and .257 Roberts chamberings, as well as in .30-Ô06; and with barrel lengths of 20-, 22-, and 24 inches.

Other features included a semi-beavertail stock with checkered pistol grip and fore end; checkered steel butt plate; hinged floor plate; swept-back bolt handle, and speed-lock firing pin which cocked on the opening of the bolt. Remington intended to phase out the Model 30 shortly after this new design hit the market, but the Pearl Harbor attack and the subsequent U.S. entry into the

Second World War threw a wrench into Remington's plans. Production of the 720 was soon discontinued as military ordnance contracts for the Model 1903A1 and the later M1903A3 took over the company's production line. Following are serial numbers and production totals by year for the Model 720: Year Serial Numbers Production Total 1941 40000 - 40427 427 1942 40428 - 41449 1,022 1943 41450 - 42422 973 1944 42423 - 42427 5 _ 2,427 Eventually, existing Model 720 inventories in .30-Ô06 caliber, as well as various incomplete sub-assemblies, were “drafted” into military service by the U.S. Navy. These rifles are easily distinguished by the “crossed cannon” Ordnance proof mark and inspector's cartouche on the stock. These rifles would never see combat service; instead, they spent the war in storage at the Navy's Crane, Indiana Ammunition Depot.

There they would remain, until an order for their destruction as surplus property was issued in 1963. Fortunately, Major Kam Hayden, U.S.M.C., who had just finished a tour as commander of the Marine Corps Marksmanship Training Unit at Quantico, Virginia, heard about the proposal to destroy these rifles. Maj. Hayden suggested that they be awarded as trophies to top Navy and Marine Corps competitive shooters.

This plan was approved, and beginning in 1964, the Model 720 was designated as the “Secretary of the Navy Trophy.” A few rifles exhibited ill-effects from their long storage and were subsequently used as a source of parts, while the remaining inventory was divided between the Navy and Marine Corps to be awarded to winners at the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio, and at various divisional and inter-service matches. Presented in their original shipping cartons, these Secretary of the Navy trophy rifles feature an engraved magazine floorplate identifying the competition for which they were awarded. Some shooters won as many as seven of these rare trophies before steps were taken to limit the awarding of a rifle.

Of the approximately 2,500 Model 720s manufactured, the .30-Ô06 variant accounts for all but about 100 of those produced. A very few were purchased through commercial outlets before remaining stocks were obtained by the Navy. Of those, only a very few remain to be awarded to Navy and Marine Corps shooters. A “rare bird” from its early days, the Model 720 has become cherished as a symbol of marksmanship superiority as well as a fine presentation-grade rifle.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Thanks Bob,

One of the regrets of my life was being in a flea-den gun shop and looking at a 1950's Target .257 Roberts. I set it down on the counter and told the owner I would think about it. A guy I hadn't seen come in picked it up, said “I'll take it!” and laid out 5 hundreds. This was less than 10 years ago, and I learned my lesson, as it was a 95% rifle. You don't' have it get it for the bottom price, just a fair price. Even from a flea-den that didn't know what they had.

Ric

Ric,

I would be kicking myself in that situation, too! ;)

A Remington 722 in 257 is on my bucket list. (not even in the same league as a Model 70 Target!) I almost ordered one last night, but opted for the .30 cal 721 instead. I do have an old Ruger 77 (NOT the MkII) in 257 that I have not yet fired. I have an old intriguing Herter's mould that I am eager to try with it.

Resp'y, Bob S.

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I was online looking for a Model 70 '06 with clip slot when I stumbled across my second Model 54.

About 35 years ago when I was in Mass. a good friend stumbled into a Model 54 Sniper. It shot like a dream with anything you put through it, from very light castloads to 190 grain SMK's for the long lines. The only problem was that someone had put an after market trigger in it ... and as you know, the factory sear is also the bolt stop ... so the bolt would just slide out. Made it sort of awkward for rapid fire.

I am still searching for my first Model 54 .....

Resp'y, Bob S.

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Bob S posted this 14 September 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I UPDATED MY ORIGINAL POST TO DEFINE THE “OLD SCHOOL” BOLTGUN CONCEPT.

If somebody has a push-feeder made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

This one will NOT be fired. It was one of my SECNAV Trophy Rifles. I won two 720 and still regret to this day that I sold one of them.

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

I UPDATED MY ORIGINAL POST TO DEFINE THE “OLD SCHOOL” BOLTGUN CONCEPT.

My thought is that American “Old School” boltguns ended with the demise of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70. This materialized in the widespread marketing of plunger ejector rifles, which were no longer “Controlled Round” feed, in which the cartridge is guided under the extractor hook as it is stripped from the magazine.

Sporterized militaries are great, as long they are based on “old school” classic boltguns. If somebody has a push-feeder made before 1964, such as a Remington 720, 721, 725, feel free to join in the discussion.

This thread is strictly nonofficial and we shall be tolerant of all nationalities and denominations. 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 14 September 2013

Bob,

Lovely old Model 70. I was online looking for a Model 70 '06 with clip slot when I stumbled across my second Model 54. But if I found a clone of yours I sure would be sorely tempted!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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