PB 120 Grain in 30-30 Model 94

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  • Last Post 26 February 2017
papertrl posted this 16 February 2017

I've been on a quest to make a 120 grain PBFN (Lyman 3118) shoot accurately in my 30-30. It's a Model 94 20” barrel from the 1950's. I started out with some fairly fast powder, and have been moving down the burn rate chart. Here are my results so far, although the quest is not over. Everything was fired at 50 yards. Alloy is 50/50 COWW/PL, baked @430 for 45 minutes and quenched. (I've been given a suggestion by someone much smarter to bake it longer, and perhaps hotter.) A pattern that seems to be appearing is that as I try progressively slower powders among the assortment of fast powders I own, the differences between best and worst groups narrows. It also looks like the slower the powder I try, the better the larger charges do. I know three isn't a very large sample size to draw conclusions, but it's what I have so far.

The next three stops in powders I own are Herco, AA-5, and 2400. The loads I've tried so far don't seem to be position sensitive. I'm thinking that I'll soon run into a powder that will stop burning well at plain based pressures/velocities. Based on several older discussions in this forum on Bullseye and cast bullets, I really thought 700X would work out better. I suppose with a little harder bullet that could be the case. Oh well, I'm making progress, and it's been fun so far. That's the most important part.

Best for Each Powder Tried                     Worst for Each Powder Tried

2.0 gr 700X, 530 fps, 0.266"                       3.5 gr 700X, 901 fps, 3.976"

5.0 gr Vectan 206V, 1043 fps, 1.263"         3.5 gr Vectan 206V, 803 fps, 3.551"

6.0 gr Unique, 1147 fps, 1.165"                  5.5 gr Unique, 1026 fps, 2.187"

Here are some bullets I recovered this week after our snow melted. Snow really does seem to be a good recovery medium. It just takes awhile!

Reed

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papertrl posted this 26 February 2017

Sounds like “Papertrl” is happy with his Lyman 3118 120gr. slug, but another easily available pill in the same weight-range is the little Lee “Trashcan” bullet, the C309-113-Flatnose.

Cary, no I'm not entirely happy with the 3118--yet--maybe never. Is the Lee “Trashcan” also called the “Soup Can,” or is that an entirely different bullet? You've given some good details in the use of this “Trashcan.” Tempting. Ed Harris has also suggested a good-sounding alternative, although my budget likes the sounds of the Lee. I have quite a bit of Lee equipment, and overall I'm satisfied with it, but I hesitate to buy more of their moulds. Maybe it's just my luck, but the last several I've bought have cast quite undersized no matter what my alloy. In addition, I've been lucky enough to have the little locator pins fall out, even with sprue plate lube on them. If I could find some old Lee moulds on EvilBay, I'd certainly bite. (Not sure of the exact vintage when things were still pretty round and size could be trusted. How long has Richard Lee been gone?)

Reed

 

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papertrl posted this 26 February 2017

I haven't used the bullet that you are but I have used both Herco and 2400. Both work well enough in 30-30 loads that should make you happy. Mine are G/C but have no reason to believe that you won't get good results. Check Lyman manual or other for load data.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll get there. Was working my way down the burn rate chart, but have been sidetracked by several good suggestions from others regarding finning, alternate bullets, nose size, and I'm probably missing some others off the top of my head. 

Reed

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Cary Gunn posted this 26 February 2017

Sounds like “Papertrl” is happy with his Lyman 3118 120gr. slug, but another easily available pill in the same weight-range is the little Lee “Trashcan” bullet, the C309-113-Flatnose.

The Lee Trashcan has been very accurate in virtually every .30 caliber shooter I've tried it in. It does well in the .308 Win. and the 30-06, and even groups nicely in the slightly larger tubes of my Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R rifles.   It also pulls duty for me in the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev pistol, and the 7.62x38R Nagant revolver.

Although I've never tried it in the .30-30, I'd bet the Lee pill would be fine there too.

I run the little fellow with a bare base at velocities up to 1300 f.p.s. or so, and gas check it if I want to kick the speed up into the mid-to-high teens.  I've never tried to run it over 2,000 f.p.s., but I'm guessing that with a gas check and suitable bullet alloy it would shoot fine at that level too.

What's more, the Lee molds are very inexpensive, and I've always found the Trashcan design very easy to cast.

If you decide to “branch out” a bit from your Lyman 3118 slug, the Lee Trashcan would be a good one to consider.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

 

  

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shootcast posted this 26 February 2017

I haven't used the bullet that you are but I have used both Herco and 2400. Both work well enough in 30-30 loads that should make you happy. Mine are G/C but have no reason to believe that you won't get good results. Check Lyman manual or other for load data.

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SierraHunter posted this 21 February 2017

I would try shooting the bullets non heat treated. No reason to heat treated if we keep the velocity around the sound barrier. Softer left will obturate better as well.

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papertrl posted this 21 February 2017

Ken,

The rifle is from the mid 50's. Lands are .302, grooves are .3091. I know I said earlier that the bore was .309. I think technically it's .302, or is that the English that do that?

I spent some time on a farm as a kid, and learned quite a bit about farmer repair and construction methodology. My grandpa and my dad both farmed. Early on my dad started logging and the methods were often similar. I lived a big chunk of my summers on my grandpa's farm and received numerous refresher courses in old school farm ways. Not much in the machine shop other than a coal-fired forge, hammers & tongs, a big anvil, and of course a stout vise. I guess that's where my interest in expedient methods comes from. It still tickles me to see cardboard covering the radiators of work trucks around here, and homemade doors and windows on cars occasionally.  So that probably explains why I found the vise to be so entertaining. A little old school creeping in. I like your stopper idea. Another field expedient. Same reason I still use a Lee Loader once in awhile.

From the sounds of your early reloading methods, you might have a book waiting to be written. Sounds like you were pioneering early forms of Lee Loader and its predecessors.  If I could clearly remember a fraction of the down home stories I heard when I was young, I'd have a book out by now.

Reed

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 February 2017

mr p.

upon re-reading my last/previous reply it occurs to me that we should differentiate between * bore * ...and ... * groove * ... diameters .

another consideration ... and another reason to do a chamber cast is that 30-30 chambers are supposed to not have much groove-diameter in front of the chamber neck ... ( in my freshly new hr handi-rifle i shot 0.314 wadcutters bumping the rifling ) ... anyway, if you have a great old classic 1949 or so m94,  the throat could be about anything ... maybe even improved by firing .

on ” vice-bumping ” ... ( g ) ....  you could put a control rod between the jaws , about in the center of the jaws, next to the bullet ... to control the squish ...    a small ( 10-32 ?  ) machine screw with a nut off the end would be adjustable ... or a piece of loosely fit tubing around the bullet ..

ha i like these ” ol' boy ” reloading tools ... when i was a kid i sized cases by jacking them into/out of a homemade sizer die with a bottle jack pushing against the bottom of our allis-chalmers tractor ... nails filed down made a great de-primer punch ...

so shoot a few of those vice-swaged slugs for us old guys ... we might still learn something ...

ken

 

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RicinYakima posted this 21 February 2017

100 years ago, fining was considered a problem. There has not been a complete test, that I know about, in the last 50 + years. Cupping does appear to limit the pressure a plain base bullet will withstand. Myself, I just shoot them at 1250 f/s and don't have a problem. HTH, Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

Best to avoid the fins in the first place.

Purpose of a bevel-based bullet is not just for easier loading, but to help prevent cupping and finning of the bullet base.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Looks like the wire edges where the “fin” used to be have been blasted off.

Those lead deposits are probably distributed down your bore!

Did I want those fins, or is it good they were blasted off? Kept things balanced that way? I had a few lead flakes on the first couple of patches and a little fine glitter that appeared in the first two brush repetitions. There weren't any globs or streaks that I could see looking down the bore. Of course I did shoot some GC rounds after the PB. Maybe they helped with the janitorial work?

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

Looks like the wire edges where the “fin” used to be have been blasted off.

Those lead deposits are probably distributed down your bore!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Ed, I'd be glad to have you look at them. Now that you've mentioned it, these bases don't look very flat anymore. Will check out your 31-125D.

Reed

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

I would like to see close-up photos of the BASES of your fired bullets.  I believe that in extruding the square-edged, sharp-based bullet into the tighter .30-30 barrel that you are dragging a “fin” off the base.  That wire edge has less heat capacity than a more rounded or beveled base, which upon upset gives the displaced material somewhere to flow.

The Accurate 31-125D in a plain, bevel-based bullet I intended for small game loads in .30 cal. rifles which could be loaded as-cast without sizing, simply tumbling in Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits, to provide a very thin lube coating all over, just enough to turn the bullets a uniform “brassy” color, making no attempt to fill the grease grooves.

In the .30-30 I use 3.0 to 5.0 grains of Bullseye.

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Thanks  for the thoughts on the chamber Ken. I've done impact casts on a couple .303 Brits, and they were very informative. Learned that one was way tighter than I was giving it credit for. I've never tried Cerosafe, but would imagine that could give the best picture. I've also been thinking about John's post, and I know he's right. Time wise it makes sense to Beagle the mould, and I probably will. But it was kind of fun watching the nose of that bullet grow in my vise. I have about 30 bullets remaining, and during breaks between working on my taxes I'll probably amuse myself by seeing how close to .309 I can make those noses. Then I'll try Beagling. I will pursue a chamber cast at some point.

Reed

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 February 2017

mr p. ::

just got back ... usually if your throat/bore is 0.309, then 0.309 will show good accuracy ... even better is 0.310 but if you have a fresh chamber you might run into tolerance stackup and some loads would be hard to chamber and some might push the bullet back in the case neck, giving ignition variances .  ...

notice we are talking mostly about your chamber throat more than the barrel proper size ...if you have a new chamber, you probably have much of the throat in your cartridge at 0.309 ...  for best information you really should slug the chamber and throat and 1/2 inch in front of the throat ...  this chamber image is very helpful in fitting your cartridge for best results .  if you are not quite ready for this interesting process, just size the nose 0.309 .

from my plinking standpoint, i try to avoid tight chambering .... everybody has to have a bullet stick and pull out once ... dumping powder into the action .... but once is enough .  ( my most recent disaster was dumping 50 gr of stick powder into a remmy 742 ... did full 2 hour takedown ... ha ) .

let us know how your project is progressing

ken

 

 

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Hmm. I'm good!

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rhbrink posted this 19 February 2017

Not sure what happened on the above post I tried to quote John and write my post but they came out as two different post hope that no body took them the wrong way?

Richard

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John Alexander posted this 19 February 2017

The post above that seems to be from rhbrink but has my name at the bottom is mine.  Not sure how that happens but any brick bats should come my way -- not at Richard.

John

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Scearcy posted this 19 February 2017

I have beagled bullets over the years. There is no question in my mind that they will produce sufficient accuracy for most purposes - for sure. There is an aluminum high temperature tape available a the big box stores which works just fine. I have a nice old Eagan mold that casts its bullets about .002 smaller than I would like. I may have to beagle that and try it today. Many if not most over the counter molds drop bullets that are somewhat out of round. 

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rhbrink posted this 19 February 2017

I always thought that if the bullet fit the throat and you shoot it will be round when it comes out the other end? Now whether or not that it will be accurate that's the $64,000 question?

RB

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