Pointed Bullets in Tubular Magazines

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Last Post 18 October 2018

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John Alexander posted this 29 September 2018

Since I have always been nutty about guns, I probably knew that you shouldn't load pointed bullets in tubular magazines by the time I was ten. In the following 75 years i have read the same warning countless times sometimes with a graphic description of which body parts you were likely to lose if you didn't heed the warning.

I have always obeyed the rule -- only flat nose bullets with the ballistic coefficient of a brick for the ol' 30-30.

Yesterday in a conversation with David Reiss about just HOW flat nosed bullets should be for his new 25-35 to avoid blowing that pretty forend off along with a few fingers. I didn't have a clue, but thinking about the question it occured to me that in spite of all the warnings, in that same 75 years I had never read once a description of a gun actually blowing up for that reason -hmmm? Do you suppose there has never been a novice reloader who somehow missed the warning and pulled some nice sharp GI bullets for use in his trusty Marlin? Or maybe a skeptic who wanted to shoot deer on the other side of the hollow who tried some spitizer hunting bullets? We know that there is alway a certain percentage of folks who "didn't get the word".

Does anybody know of first or second hand information of this type of accident taking place or a reference in a believable source?

Of course you can't prove a negative but David found a video on UTube of a guy doing his best to try. They had a literal blast blazing away with a variety of calibers some with sever recoil without getting the expected disaster.

Do you suppose this danger ,which seem perfectly logical, is just another piece of baloney in the conventional wisdom of gun nuts?

John

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GP Idaho posted this 18 October 2018

dbarron: Other causes than a pointed bullet might cause a tube detonation. A primer that was seated improperly at home or at the factory might be a suspect.Gp

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dbarron posted this 18 October 2018

There was an article in "Handloader" (I think) years ago, in which the author did a very thorough test of this concept and was unable to trigger a chain fire. On the other hand, I once had a client who lost his left thumb when a round(s) detonated in a lever action magazine. The available medical records supported this. The gent was gun savvy and denied that he had loaded pointed ammo. As I recall it was a Marlin 45-70, so...

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GP Idaho posted this 17 October 2018

Well Joe, You'd be more than welcome to use my Marlin 336 but it would be quite a road trip for two old men. Half way should be somewhere around Omaha. I wonder if they have a CBA club range near there? Wish we were closer, it would be fun to be in on the experiment. I hope someone local to you steps up to help out. Gp

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joeb33050 posted this 17 October 2018

I'm stuck, the borrowed Marlin 336 needs a stick and hammer taps to get cartridges into the magazine. I need to borrow an other lever gun.

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 10 October 2018

I've got the dies, Thanks John; bullets, Thanks Arch and Gary, and brass, Thanks Gary. I got the Marlin 336 30-30 today, and it is a bear to get a ctg in the magazine, AND, it doesn't eject.

I've had the bolt out a dozen times, the ejector is there on the left wall of the receiver, everything else works, but no eject.

This is a ~50 year old unfired rifle.

Does anyone know why?

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RicinYakima posted this 08 October 2018

The article was by Mic McFarland (?) who set off a round, .44/40 (?) in a Marlin magazine tube with electric wire on the primer. Round blow up, opened the tube but none of the other rounds exploded. Would have been bad if your hand was around the tube at the time. FWIW

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alamogunr posted this 08 October 2018

I hate to intrude on this interesting discussion but it reminded me of an article in either Precision Shooting or The Accurate Rifle, both now defunct. A similar test was done only a little more scientific IIRC. That test had a similar result. I can't go look for the article since sold off my collection of both publications about a year ago.

Maybe someone else remembers the article.

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David Reiss posted this 04 October 2018

Glad to see an experiment underway to find this out. I don't have any data of course, but I doubt that a .219 Zipper or 25-35 would have enough recoil to cause a magazine explosion.

One practical answer is to just load one in the chamber, and one in the magazine - who has ever really done anything on a hunt with the 3rd shot anyway? That and I think old school rounds like 25-35, .348, etc. with considerable body taper lie in the tube with the bullets down on the floor of the tube, against the rim of the round ahead, not on the primer. But am I sure enough of that to risk my gun and/or my left hand? No, I ain't!

Mitch,

No sure about the cartridges lying against the rims because off the spring pressure.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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M3 Mitch posted this 04 October 2018

Glad to see an experiment underway to find this out. I don't have any data of course, but I doubt that a .219 Zipper or 25-35 would have enough recoil to cause a magazine explosion.

One practical answer is to just load one in the chamber, and one in the magazine - who has ever really done anything on a hunt with the 3rd shot anyway? That and I think old school rounds like 25-35, .348, etc. with considerable body taper lie in the tube with the bullets down on the floor of the tube, against the rim of the round ahead, not on the primer. But am I sure enough of that to risk my gun and/or my left hand? No, I ain't!

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GP Idaho posted this 03 October 2018

Check your PMs Joe. Also, I sent along 20 more "pointy" bullets. Gp

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joeb33050 posted this 03 October 2018

I've got 39 Sierra 180 gr hpbt bullets, and Rem 2 1/2 LP primers. I DON'T have 30=30 reloading dies.

I need to borrow a set of 30-30 dies, I'll send them right back.

I think that 2 ctgs in the magazine allows the mag spring to store recoil energy and have a better chance of firing a primer.

Others think a full mag increases chance.

Plan:

Load some cases, Sierra bullets, no powder, Rem 2 1/2, for the magazine.

Load some cases with 170 + gr bullets, Sierra included, at ~ factory velocity.

Dummies in mag.

Fire 1 shot, offhand.

Extract dummies, inspect, if primer fired, quit. If not, load again.

Continue until primer fires or I get sick of the recoil.

?????????????

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 October 2018

... if you guys figure this puzzle out .... wonder if you might stop by and spend a few hours studying up my wife ???

ken

would the maximum force seen by the cartridges be limited by the pre-load of the magazine spring ??

a little scary when you realize that firing pin tips are nicely rounded too, just like 30-30 recommended bullets ...

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joeb33050 posted this 02 October 2018

I need ~ 10 .30 fmj cannelure bullets for the test

Thanks;

joe b.

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David Reiss posted this 02 October 2018

At this point I think that it would take a lot of recoil, more than what is normally encountered with lever action loads or very sensitive primers. With that said I am no fool and don't intend to test the theory with one of my guns or skin. I would think it beneficial for one of the gun or ammo companies to thoroughly test this.

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BigMan54 posted this 02 October 2018

Well, I guess my idea of the rounds having to be held tightly "nose to tail" isn't worth spit.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 02 October 2018

Mr. Bill,

I had already watched this one. It is of course produced by the same people. I did not reference if because I felt it had little to do with my question of recoil causing one round to set off the one in front of it. Nevertheless it is fun to watch.

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mrbill2 posted this 02 October 2018

Take a look at this :

And at high speed film :

mrbill2

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BigMan54 posted this 01 October 2018

OK,

I looked at the video again.

I think a true test would require the mag tube to be rigidly attached to the gun.

You would have to fire the gun itself to get the correct recoil forces.

You would have to fill the mag tube with as many rounds as it would take, to lessen the cushioning action of the mag spring itself. I don't think I fired my TRAPPER with more then 4rds in the mag. Even though it would take 5rds.

I think the HEAVIER the bullet the more inertia would be generated. That might aid in causing a primer detonation.

I also think maybe using a more sensitive target primer might aid in ignition. As well as a longer bbl/mag combination, say a 30" bbl/mag with a more powerful cartridge.

Maybe an 1895 Marlin converted to .30-06 with a pencil bbl & full length mag tube, shooting machine gun ammo.

Just my thoughts, worthless as they are considered to be.

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John Alexander posted this 01 October 2018

Sorry David.

Joe,

Since you asked for advice/comments ----

I suspect you already intended to but be sure to fill up the cases with 30 grains of lead shot, sand, whatever so the mass of the rounds are realistic.

Also if rifle primers don't fire be sure to try pistol primers to see if there is a margin of safety.

It seems to me that first you should try FMJ military bullets. If those don't do the trick it's a pretty good bet that the others won't

You may be the only guy to ever run a straight forward test to find out. The test in the video was a little weird in making the gun recoil forward for most of his tests and introducing a mass that soaked up some of the energy of the fired bullet. Also taping the tubes to the barrel allowed a bit of cushioning at a critical time.

If nobody has done it before why not?

John

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BigMan54 posted this 01 October 2018

Ok, David,

COOL YOUR JETS.

I've fired several of those SIERRA 150gr Spitzers in my '94 Trapper. Stuff 4 rds into the Magazine , rack the LEVER and blaze away. But there was a problem the first time I tried it. The 3rd rd jammed, recoil had driven the bullets back into the CASES, exposing the case mouth that jammed trying to go into the chamber.

So why didn't I try a bullet with a cannalure like the HORNADY.

Because back into late 1970's, SIERRA BULLETS were in Santa Be Springs, CA. Less then 15miles from my home . You could walk in and BUY REJECTS FOR;

.50 CENTS A POUND. ONE HUNDRED 150gr BULLETS were about a pound.

I still have about 5 lbs left of various bullets. It was take what ever they had at the time.

And yes I tried a LYMAN 310 neck sizer to give a tiny bit of TAPER CRIMP.

And that worked great. I must have fired 2-3 hundred of .30WCF rds through the Magazine of my '94 Trapper at the range. Loading 3-4 in the Mag at a time.

It's great fun to hi-jack one of your threads, DAVID.

WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET YOUR "bearded, horned animal"