THE LEE COLLET DIE AND I

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  • Last Post 02 April 2017
joeb33050 posted this 28 March 2017

 

THE LEE COLLET DIE AND I

 

I’ve bought, tried, examined, fiddled with, yelled at, sold and given away Lee Collet Dies; and never had success until I figured out how to make them work.  Here’s how I do it:

 

Remove the o-rings from the cap and lock ring. Put them aside.

 

Remove the mandrel/decapper. Put it aside.

 

Put the die together, tighten the cap hand tight, start the die in the press.

 

Put a fired case in the shell holder, raise the ram to the stop.

 

Screw the die down until the shell holder touches the collet.

 

Now, carefully, screw the die down, raise the ram to the stop and check the case with a bullet. A bit at a time. Keep doing it. As the die goes down, the case neck will get tighter. Eventually the case neck will be tight BUT there will be a flare at the chamfered neck big enough to start a gas check on the bullet.

 

I try a few bullets to get the neck just right, and now the LCD works fine on 223, 22-250 and 305 cases.  

 

When the die is set just right, I make a dimple with a punch at 6 o’clock on the cap. Makes it easier to set the die next time.

 

Voila!

 

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John Alexander posted this 02 April 2017

"Shooters of the world, cast off your mandrels!

joe b."

 

No argument with Joe here.  I have been doing it since the LCD came out and if the neck thickness is reasonably uniform the IDs are very consistent -- not that consistent ID makes any difference to either accuracy or velocity variation if in the right range to not shave or distort bullets.

 

Just want to add that you don't have to remove the mandrel and deprime separately.  Most CBs need to be bigger than JBs and the right amount of sizing won't touch the mandrel anyway.  If it does, the mandrel can easily lapped down in a drill with sandpaper to get it out of the action and still deprime on the sizing stroke.

 

John

 

 

 

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OU812 posted this 02 April 2017

Joe, The groupings that you have displayed (especially 22 caliber) prove you know what you are talking about.

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joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Thank you Joe. Now I understand, it is a convenience for your reloading process, not because it makes any difference at the target. On the LCD's, that may have been my problem, I tried to use them the way the directions stated, but was not going to trim cases after every shot!

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I probably trim every 5-10 shots, then only a little-but there is a BIG difference in cases, some just touch and a few others want a lot of brass trimmed off. I rotate cases in each lot of brass, each case is shot in turn-or close, the same number of times.

Shooters of the world, cast off your mandrels!

joe b.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

Thank you Joe. Now I understand, it is a convenience for your reloading process, not because it makes any difference at the target. On the LCD's, that may have been my problem, I tried to use them the way the directions stated, but was not going to trim cases after every shot!

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joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Why would you decap in a separate step? I can think of no logical reason to do that, unless you are shooting black powder or corrosive primers. I clean primer pockets just because it make the primers easier to seat with my homemade tool.

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I shoot only from the bench, wipe/clean, decap and clean primer pocket after every shot-when I think it's needed I also trim the case. This slows me down and keeps me shooting at a measured pace.

(I can remember John Ardito at Old Colony, decapping and cleaning primer pockets between shots-one case.)

Also, I never had a press that would allow catching all the primers, many on the floor.

Note that cases the same length work best in the Lee Collet Die, for the mouth to be flared the same. Varying flare is a sign to trim.

Note that the LCD does NOT need the O-rings or the mandrel/decap rod to work very nicely.

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onondaga posted this 02 April 2017

Why would you decap in a separate step? I can think of no logical reason to do that, unless you are shooting black powder or corrosive primers. I clean primer pockets just because it make the primers easier to seat with my homemade tool.

There is really no direct way to answer to your question except that your logic, that I agree with, is invisible to other philosophies on the order of ideological differences. We have some contrarian ideologues here that disagree with both of us. I won't mention any names, but his initials are ALWAYS Joe B.

 

 

Gary

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

Why would you decap in a separate step? I can think of no logical reason to do that, unless you are shooting black powder or corrosive primers. I clean primer pockets just because it make the primers easier to seat with my homemade tool.

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joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2017

Following in the path of the best shooters, I decap as a separate step ALWAYS. And, clean primer pockets.

joe b.

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Westhoff posted this 31 March 2017

Re  OU812's post (above):  Nope, the Lee collet die decaps as it neck sizes.  The only time it might be a good idea to use some other neck size die is if you have a bunch of cases with badly off-center flash holes.  Since the decapping pin is at the bottom end of the neck sizing mandrel, the off-center flash hole MIGHT pull the bottom end of the mandrel far enough out of line to affect the concentricity of the neck with relation to the shell body.  However, I have a bunch of WCC GI brass with visibly off-center flash holes, I have been using my Lee die with them, and I generally check concentricity of several round out of each batch of my reloads, and I've yet to find a problem.

So you probably have to be even more anal about your reloading methods than I am, to worry about that particular possibility.

Wes

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GP Idaho posted this 31 March 2017

I've read Sears write up and considered making the adaptation. Like Wes, I believe the collet neck sizing dies to be one of Lee's better ideas. They have always worked very well for me set up in the conventional way. With the extra step of expanding with the NOE expansion plugs I can get a one to two thousands inch neck tension on rounds built for various chamber necks. I enjoy the time spent reloading and in retirement I don't mind an extra step or two so have left the dies as they came from Lee.  Gp

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45 2.1 posted this 31 March 2017

Sears idea is fine... be careful of how much you cut off as that controls how much flair/opening you have left, enough so it doesn't scrap the bullet, but not so much it leaves a big bulge. Much the same can be done by placing the collet in a lathe chuck, squeezing it down concentrically and putting a taper into the top inside of the collet. Same idea, enough but not too much. That gives you much the same results as an expander die does.

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Notlwonk posted this 31 March 2017

In the patent Lee was anticipating using ( or at least legally covering all bases) an elastomer ring instead of the fingers and steel cone to squeeze the fingers. He shows both configurations in the drawings.  All my collet dies have a steel cone.

Taken from the patent abstract   “In another embodiment an annular bushing of elastomeric material is confined in a space around the neck and the bushing is compressed axially to cause it to bulge radially inwardly so as to apply a force for forming the neck to the mandrel........."

 My 50 year old Lyman Spartan has enough slop in the ram so that it will self center to what ever forces are set up with uneven wall thickness.

I like Sears idea, I may try it on my Krag dies that were cobbled together, loose chamber! 

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OU812 posted this 31 March 2017

Doesn't the mandrel/decapper  prevent the second step of removing primer/cap...I like removing the primer and sizing in one easy step? 

 

 

 

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Westhoff posted this 31 March 2017

I"m not too impressed with some of Lee's products, but I'm very ready to admit that I think the Lee Collet Die is one of the best ideas I've seen in a long time.  I use them and like them.  There is, however, a very simple modification that makes that tool even better,  It was written up in Fouling Shot 179 in an article by Robert Sears.

Briefly, the improvement consists of shortening the collet itself so it leaves about 0.03 inches at the case mouth unsized. Sears leaves a fired case in the collet to support the fingers while the end is turned off.  Quoting Sears, “Cases sized in the shortened collet need no chamfering at the mouth and have a very smooth step inside the case neck to ease seating the bullet.  The unsized mouth also helps center the front of the case in the chamber."

I've tried it, and it not only works like a charm, It also does away with running all the cases through the belling process after neck sizing.  I'd suggest anyone planning to do this get hold of a copy of Sears'  article.  He has some suggestions that make the operation more professional.

Wes

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joeb33050 posted this 30 March 2017

The patent is here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US4723472

The o-ring in the lock nut is not mentioned, nor is the lock ring shown on the drawings.

The cap o-ring is mentioned thus:

“A rubber o-ring 29 is installed between cap 27 and die housing 25 to frictionally grip the cap so it does not turn out inadvertently.”

Note that figure 4 and the whole elastomeric alternative have nothing to do with the Lee Collet die.

The patent does NOT say or imply that the O-rings have any connection to concentricity.

My cases are sizing nicely using my method.

The mandrel, in my opinion, is nonsense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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OU812 posted this 30 March 2017

A long bore rider with a short and fat band area sounds logical for a big throated factory rifle.

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45 2.1 posted this 30 March 2017

In his book on rifle accuracy Tony Boyer relates a story about a vendor trying to sell him a tool that sounded much like the Hornady tool.  As he pointed out, when a properly loaded round is chambered the nose of the bullet will be centered as it engages the rifling.  The position of the base of the bullet is dictated by the position of the case neck relative to the bore.  If the case neck is perfectly centered in the case and the case is a perfect fit in a perfectly straight chamber then the bullet will be perfectly aligned with the bore.  In the real world (at least in my world) the base of the bullet will be somewhere between perfectly aligned and the maximum the clearance between the case neck and the chamber will allow.  Put another way, if the chamber neck diameter is .341” and the loaded round diameter of the case neck is .337” the maximum that the base of the bullet can be out of alignment is .002". 

It may be possible that the softer surface of out cast bullets won't self-align as well as jacket bullets.  Rats.  Now I'm going to have to go out sometime this summer and bend some bullets just to see if I can make them shoot crooked!

 

Glad to hear that someone else realizes this also! Hope springs eternal......... As far as self aligning bullets, Yes there are some out there. Lyman has some in 22 and 30 caliber....... MP Molds does also in several calibers. The trick in getting them to self align is not jambing them into the throat... they need a little room to run.

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John Carlson posted this 30 March 2017

Funny Lee didn't include that in the instructions that accompany the die but in any case the concept seemed worth investigating.  In that vein I sized 10 cases with my Hornady locking ring and then installed the locknut/o-ring and adjusted per the instructions.  According to my Hornady concentricity tool the case neck runout, with the hornady locking ring, did not exceed .001” on any of the 10 cases.  With the Lee nut/o-ring 4 of the cases exceeded .001 with the maximum being right at .002...........Relevant?..............Well..............

In his book on rifle accuracy Tony Boyer relates a story about a vendor trying to sell him a tool that sounded much like the Hornady tool.  As he pointed out, when a properly loaded round is chambered the nose of the bullet will be centered as it engages the rifling.  The position of the base of the bullet is dictated by the position of the case neck relative to the bore.  If the case neck is perfectly centered in the case and the case is a perfect fit in a perfectly straight chamber then the bullet will be perfectly aligned with the bore.  In the real world (at least in my world) the base of the bullet will be somewhere between perfectly aligned and the maximum the clearance between the case neck and the chamber will allow.  Put another way, if the chamber neck diameter is .341” and the loaded round diameter of the case neck is .337” the maximum that the base of the bullet can be out of alignment is .002". 

It may be possible that the softer surface of out cast bullets won't self-align as well as jacket bullets.  Rats.  Now I'm going to have to go out sometime this summer and bend some bullets just to see if I can make them shoot crooked!

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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45 2.1 posted this 29 March 2017

A lot of us use the Collet dies in a manner different than what Lee intended. It's not any of Lee's concern though.... or anybody else's. I've went farther than anything I've read in magazines or cyber forums. Mine work quite well, far better than the original set up.

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onondaga posted this 29 March 2017

I'm with you joeb33050. I mutilated mine years ago and it still works.

 

Yup. you can mutilate them in one stroke of the press with no shell in the shell holder. They are easy to adjust back to specification if you know and understand the dimensions of the part and the dimensions of the area where the part fits for function. Of course, If you have galled the parts fiddling with them or using them incorrectly, then , adjustment back to specification may not be enough to accommodate galled parts and you will have to replace galled parts. Depending on your attitude and manners, Lee may do this for free even if you have brutally mutilated your die parts.

Gary

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